Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id MAA13366 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:28:27 GMT Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3101745C39@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Evolution of ontogeny Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:27:25 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
<Genetic evolution wouldnt stop. But in our world the less fit ones
would
> not get eliminated but would simply go down the economic hierarchy.>
>
There are other kinds of social heirarchy that are important,
economics is just one part (although if you're a critical political
economist then it is the most important part).
<If you look at how women choose their grooms you can see that they
make a
> fine balance between economic compulsion and what they perceive as
> advantageous traits.>
>
God know why my wife picked me then :-). According to evolutionary
psychology women choose men that demonstrate high male parental investment
(mpi), but the characteristics they overtly concentrate on depends on the
culture, and the individual woman and man within that culture. Plenty of
people have made choices of mate regardless of financial status, for
example.
<With time advantageous traits like intelligence and other
attributes will
> start floating towards those higher up in the ladder and less desirable
> things would gravitate down. But it would take millenia to see the
> effect.>
>
Ever read Wells' 'The Time Machine'?
<However you cannot strictly call them as new species since they all
will
> be genetically compatible for mating. But with the kind of churnig that we
> see , poor people will not only become poorer economicaly but genetically
> as well in due course of time.>
>
This is exactly the change of language that has worried, even
angered, those in the social sciences over previous efforts at applying
evolutionary theory to culture and society. The thing is it's not that
simple. There have already been examples of monarchical societies where
exclusivity in mate selection has led to vulnerability of monarchical
families to particular diseases, whether it be the incestuous nature of
ancient egyptians pharoahs, or the inbreeding of european monarchies in more
recent times.
<Any one in the lower strata who does well will move up the chain
bringing
> the genes up in the chain.
>
> Look at my background. I am a first generation graduate but has gone much
> farther than anyone in my whole native village. I must be grateful to my
> ancestors who gave importance to education (my parents couldnt study
> further due to financial reasons although they were good at it) rather
> than economic qualities. People from my village who were economically
> beter off some 50 yrs who couldnt do academically well have gone down both
> ways.
>
> Better genes would accumulate in the better off populations were there is
> freedom to move vertically.>
>
Define 'better' genes.
Vincent
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Lawrence DeBivort wrote:
>
> > Thanks.
> > Yes, 50,000 years may be too little to see biological evolution -- but
> we do
> > know that homo sapiens evolved from earlier forms of homo. Are you
> > suggesting that that process has stopped, or simply that the last 50,000
> > years don't reveal biological evolution?
> >
> > I can think of a lot of changes that have happened socially in the last
> > 50,000 years that I would call markers of social evolution:
> sedentarization
> > and farming, empire, distance communication, technological 'symbiosis',
> etc.
> > I am of course not suggesting that all of these are wholly 'good' --
> only
> > that they are of evolutionary consequence, and certainly that they are
> > irreversible.
> >
> > - Lawrence
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Wade T.Smith
> > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 8:37 AM
> > To: memetics list
> > Subject: RE: Evolution of ontogeny
> >
> >
> > On 02/04/01 21:13, Lawrence DeBivort said this-
> >
> > >And we have had no evidence so far that the human being has evolved
> over
> > >the last 50 or so millennia....
> > >
> > >But lots and lots of history to mandate that we haven't.
> > >
> > >LdB:
> > >Can you say more about what you mean here? Thanks
> >
> > The physical being that is the human ain't changed, to my knowledge,
> > sparse as it is. And the historical record would indicate that behaviors
> > and societies haven't changed, either.
> >
> > _Do_ we have any evidence that homo sapiens sapiens has evolved over the
> > last 50 millennia?
> >
> > - Wade
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Dr Able Lawrence MD
> Senior Resident
> Clinical Immunology
> SGPGIMS, Lucknow
> able@sgpgi.ac.in
> Ph +91 98390 70247
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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