Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA13989 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 14 Jan 2001 15:48:04 GMT Message-Id: <200101141545.KAA10198@mail6.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:48:01 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: DNA Culture .... Trivia? In-reply-to: <20010114152449.A2152@reborntechnology.co.uk> References: <B68716E0.6906%bbenzon@mindspring.com>; from bbenzon@mindspring.com on Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 08:42:10AM -0500 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Date sent: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 15:24:49 +0000
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: DNA Culture .... Trivia?
From: Robin Faichney <robin@reborntechnology.co.uk>
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> On Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 08:42:10AM -0500, William Benzon wrote:
> > on 1/12/01 4:57 PM, Robin Faichney at robin@reborntechnology.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 09:42:42AM -0500, William Benzon wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Their favorite stories seem to be about religion and cultures. And the
> > >> stories they tell indicate that they have a very shallow conception of human
> > >> nature and society. The orthodox memetic position is that the most
> > >> important thing about religion is that it is irrational. That's what they
> > >> want to explain. How do they explain it? By saying those pesky memes are
> > >> working juju on the minds of otherwise unsuspecting adults.
> > >>
> > >> That's a pathetic explanation. It tells me these people simply do not have
> > >> any deep conception of human nature. They aren't interested in explaining
> > >> human behavior. Rather, they want to explain it away by palming it off on
> > >> memes.
> > >
> > > I think you're absolutely right regarding that "explanation" of religion
> > > and the people who propound it. But I'd like to see you try to back up
> > > your claim that it's "the orthodox memetic position".
> >
> > Are you suggesting that Dawkins, Dennett, Lynch, & Blackmore have something
> > else to say on the matter?
>
> Given Blackmore's commitment to Buddhism, I think it safe to assume she
> does NOT belong in that camp. Of the others, Dawkins is the only one that
> I know does. But whatever, there is very little that can reasonably be
> considered "orthodox memetics" -- that, surely, is one of its weaknesses.
> I'd suggest that you succumb to the temptation to take the worst as
> typical due to your anti-memetic prejudice. This is an extremely
> successful meme, to be found just about anywhere there's any prejudice,
> whatsoever, even when it means imagining concensus where there's none.
>
> By the way, as far as I'm concerned, that memetic way of talking is
> just that: a way of talking. At this level, that of the specific
> meme, it has no significant explanatory power. Much better, most
> times, to use psychology, etc. So I'm on your side in this. But the
> fundamentals of memetics are useful at a higher level of abstraction.
> It provides a way of thinking in objective terms about recurring patterns
> of non-genetically-determined behaviour. As far as I'm aware, there is
> no alternative to it, in this. Though I'd be fascinated to learn of any.
>
Don't forget to add Brodie to your list of names; his position on
religion is not what Benzon has described, but rather a 'whatever
gets you through the day and through your encounters with society
is hokay' stance. His position is pragmatic and utilitarian; it does
not matter to him whether or not your beliefs are true so much as it
matters whether they are useful. In science, these two (utility and
truth) dovetail, but that situation is not, for Brodie, true of every life
realm.
I view memetics much as I view phenomenology, hermeneutics,
genetic epistemology and semiotics, not as sciences, but as
philosophical stances - ways to carve up and categorize the
observed/experienced/participated-in world in a consistent, sense-
making fashion. This does not mean, however, that any of them
are useless; perspective is an essential component of observation.
> --
> Robin Faichney
> robin@reborntechnology.co.uk
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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