Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id XAA18652 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:53:26 GMT From: <lhousego@axa.com.au> X-Lotus-FromDomain: NMH@NMHEXT@NMHDMZ To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Message-Id: <4A2569BC.0003A96A.00@c2.nm.com.au> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:41:54 +1000 Subject: RE: Who knew genes could get mean? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Perhaps another way of looking at a meme is that it is a dynamic locus of
stimuli to complex systems.
Classification then may not require as much "dancing on pinheads".
Classification of different kinds of dynamic stimuli and their effects on
differing classes of complex systems can then be made independantly.
Breaking down to DNA or not DNA, verbal or non-verbal is a bit ahead of the
game in my opinion. A computer virus for instance should definitely be
considered memetic, and does not rely upon interaction with verbal or DNA
systems. Modern channel marketing systems for music give a new Celine
Dion/Britney Spears song market spread before a human even hears it. This
should also be considered memetic, albeit very evolved and efficient.
This is perhaps a little too expansive a view, and I would be interested to
hear what would be outside the definition of a meme.
TJ Olney <market@cc.wwu.edu> on 21/12/2000 08:46:01 am
Please respond to memetics@mmu.ac.uk
To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
cc:
Subject: RE: Who knew genes could get mean?
Ah, do I see more dancing on pin heads here...
Derek is right, instincts cannot be cultural and be instincts.
Misy is right instincts form the templates for the most primitive cultural
constructs.
What is not at all clear is whether Blackmore is right, that we evolved big
meme capable brains in service to memes.
I continue to contend that although successful memes might not have any big
species survival advantage, they cannot have any big survival disadvantage
and be successful. It seems to me that this would be especially true when
survival of the species is threatened by environmental circumstances.
If communication from host to host of an information pattern constitutes a
meme, then our DNA is memetic.
If we require that to be a meme, it must be verbal, then DNA is not
memetic.
However, if we only require that it be a unit of cultural transmission,
then
to the extent that parts of our DNA are necessary for us as organisms to
participate in cultures, then are not those bits of DNA memetic? Could not
those be instincts?
The mutual exclusivity is not all that clear to me. The mutual
interdependency of genes and memes, on the other hand, is obvious. It's
nature/nurture taken to as low a level as possible. Twins studies
(identical
twins raised apart) have done a rather remarkable job in demonstrating that
many things that appear to be memetic are in fact hard-coded potentials or
proclivities with genetic foundations.
TJ Olney
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Gatherer, D. (Derek) wrote:
> Derek:
> I don't understand. How can an instinct be a meme?
> I keep asking myself the question; "What selective advantage do we have
with
> this ability to spread memes?"
>
> Derek:
> Or in other words, what selective advantage is obtained by the ability to
> communicate through language etc. This would seem to be self evident.
>
> Misy:
> Evolution of thought is the concept, and therefore, most importantly the
> selective advantage conferred through the possession of a given idea, or
> thought, and those instincts that they may have evolved from?
>
> Derek:
> No sorry, don't understand this at all. How do you propose that
instincts
> are cultural? If you can't answer that then surely you have to admit
that
> instincts are not memes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
-- -- TJ Olney market@cc.wwu.edu Not all those who wander are lost. -- http://mp3.musicmatch.com/artists/artists.cgi?id=113&display=1=============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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=============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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