Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA11287 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:31:36 +0100 From: "Chris Lofting" <ddiamond@ozemail.com.au> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Article, A Solipsistic View On Memetics Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:32:23 +1000 Message-ID: <LPBBICPHCJJBPJGHGMCIMEOICIAA.ddiamond@ozemail.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31017459FC@inchna.stir.ac.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
A two in one, Vincent and then Kenneth...
Vincent:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Vincent Campbell
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 September 2000 6:56
> To: 'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'
> Subject: RE: Article, A Solipsistic View On Memetics
>
>
> OK- but how do we measure that beyond each self?
>
> That's one problem with solipsism in that you can't empirically
> test any of
> its assertions, since whatever you 'find' must be a product of your mind,
or God... isnt fundamentalism solipsism?...
> since the world only exists within it.
>
> It becomes absurdly reductive.
>
> On the other hand I see more clearly Kenneth's idea that memes may act
> solipsistically, as if there were no other memes but them. But that's a
> different point.
>
gets back to Richard Feynman's concept -- treat every thing as a wave and
every thing is 'doing its own thing' and the interference patterns create
reality; ruled by the constructive/destructive dichotomy.
This comes from an object perspective which then leads to dynamics,
relational processes.
In this sense each 'thing' pushes for sameness ('be like me') and the
interference patterns bring out differences and new sameness sourced in
dynamics ('be like us?'). The 'God' meme works this way.
Kenneth:
note that extending the sameness/difference dichotomy there are FOUR
contexts from which we analyse:
(1) sameness in sameness (sensation seeking)
(2) sameness behind difference (problem solving, scientific viewpoint,
fact/fiction)
(3) difference behind sameness (security seeking, moral viewpoint,
right/wrong)
(4) difference within difference (identity seeking)
(we can extend these to eight etc but the above is enough).
The problem with sameness in sameness is that it is really hard to see!
everything 'looks' the same! The sensation seeking reflects this 'feeling
around' :-) Reductionism gets down to this but it is beyond Science in that
Science demands difference to be able to detect the sameness behind the
differences. Sensation seeking gets around the 'problem' of all sameness, it
is like pinching yourself since your body is too sameness biased! too
self-contained perhaps?
Difference within difference is perceived as dynamic, all change (patterns
imply SAMENESS and so sameness behind/within difference). From a typological
perspective these 'types' deny typology or else see it as something
'fleeting'...
1+3 are variations on a theme, as are 2+4.
memes seem to come out of (2) and (3) where (2) and (3) reflect BOUNDARY
states (them vs us) etc. They are derived from the 'pure' states of (1) and
(4).
Resonance, where there is no need for memes etc is tied to (1). Very gene
biased or else very well learnt algorithms/formulas such that you get 'mind
reading'; dove-tailing etc there is no talk just a 'knowing'. Ant
consciousness :-)
keep it coming :-)
best,
Chris.
------------------
Chris Lofting
websites:
http://www.eisa.net.au/~lofting
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond
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