Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA08489 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:33:34 +0100 Message-ID: <001e01c01c1a$6df257a0$1a09bed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: "memetics" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: Fw: Article, A Solipsistic View on Memetics - Part 1 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:01:40 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth Van Oost <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be>
To: <LJayson@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Article, A Solipsistic View on Memetics - Part 1
>
> Len, thanks for the remarks. I will take them into account. Your
suggestions
> will certainly be helpful. But I have a few remarks of my own, if you don
't
> mind_ this is a discussion list after all !!
>
> > Hi Kenneth,
> > I am new to the listgroup. I've been studying memetics for
> > only a few months. The extent of my reading is Blackmore,
> > Dawkins, Dennett, Brodie and some of the archives.
>
> Part 1
> >
> > We all do understand memes to represent units of information passed on
> in
> > some form of communication between two or more organisms/ brains.
> > We comprehend memes as intentions, fears, emotions, beliefs,
> suppositions,
> > aspirations,...as they are found in language, ideologies, theories and
> > religions.
> > We do also understand that a Self, that I reflects those memes.
> >
> > Len:
> > Perhaps the last sentence could be expressed more clearly.
>
> << No problem, I will work on that.>>
> Is that is the case then ' my
> > '
> > memes will strive and succeed where others fail, and that Self(plex)
of
> > mine
> > will grow. ( Idit Susan Blackmore/ Memes, Myself and I)
> >
> > Len:
> > It may be better to say "my memes may strive and succeed", etc
> > There is really no way of being certain.
>
> << Will, is here unvoluntary used ( now I see it) in the solipsistic way.
> I am the only mind existing remerber !
> But ok, it is confusing and in the sense for the article " may " is
better.
> I still doubt if I will ever use " will " or " may "...>>
>
> > Len comments:
> > crystal not cristal
>
> << You will see that a lot, my native language is Dutch, my English is be-
> coming better, but faults are inevitable...>>
> >
> >
> > If memes, as we established are selfish (they show no mercy) and they
> > created the world in the way as we know it today ( including the first
> memes
> > for the very first genes) haven ' t they then not created the world
in
> a
> > solip-
> > sistic way !?
> > After all, are they then not egoistic, in some sense moral self-
> interested
> > primary in their doing and being !?
> > Memes act in such a way, so what is the point !?
>
> >
> > Do memes really replace any genes? Don't memes and genes coexist?
>
> << Memes and genes coexist now ! Back in the early years there were only
> memes, like I side they could originate from something like morphogenetic
> fields. The argument that memes existed before genes is not mine, a member
> have put that idea on the list, can 't remerber who it was. But I do
recall
> that
> there was no discussion about that. Maybe now ?
> Memes replacing genes ? Hm, don 't think so, did I write this, where and
> how ? Memes influencing genes, yes and moreover I think more than we
> realise. Memes are in my opinion in some extend " reactions " on changes
> in the environment where we live in. Genes are to slow...>>
>
> > By the way, what does solipsistic mean? I could not find it in the
> > M-W dictionary.
>
> << Solipsistic, it would be better to put it between question marks, I
sup-
> pose. It means being part of the world of solipsism. If I understand you
> correctly there is no adjective for solipsism ?>>
>
> The reality out there is (partly) an optional extra. What counts is
> what
> > is happening inside the brain and what happens there in complety
> personal.
> > In a sense the brain secretes its own private ' reality ' wherein '
> me
> > ', who
> > experiences this ' reality ' is somewhat a convergepoint/ a host
> whereby
> > info/ memes are/ is perceived, gets transformed and is/ are send '
back
> > out ' again.
> >
> > I would not downplay the reality out there as no more than an optional
> extra.
>
> << Reality as an optional extra is in the context of this article well put
I
> think.
> In the case of one " solipsistic " mind the outside world is primary -
info.
> It is there to help the mind in order to re-construct my innerworld.
>
> > It is certainly as essential to the human mind as any genetic
> underpinnings.
>
> << Certainly it does for " normal " minds, not in the case of a "
> solipsistic-
> one ", its uses the outside world as a storage- tank.
> > In terms of memetic science, how would you define 'imagination?'
>
> << Hm, imagination...yes indeed, in our used definitions it seems unclear
to
> use it. Well put ! I have to refine the matter further but I think
> imagination in
> memetic terms would be " ' making' up new neural connections between al-
> ready existing ( memorised) info " >>
> > Instead of 'imagination' could you say, 'extraneous memes'?
>
> << In a sense you could say that. Imagination would be like lining up meme
> (plexes) in a particular order conjucted with a new set of memes. The
result
> would be not only a new memeplex (that too) but more important a ( new)
> idea. Ideas would be somewhat the result of relining our thoughts_proces-
> sing new neural connections between already existing info.
> But I am working on an article regarding the difference between an idea
> and a meme...but that is not what you asked for, I think...
> > >
> > Kenneth, I like your article a great deal because it says so much
> > about the unique qualities of each human brain which then combine
> > with memetic intake in countless ways.
>
> << Thanks, I am trying to make sense...
>
> > Hope my comments have helped.
> << Certainly ! Don 't wait with the rest...
>
> Many regards,
>
> Kenneth
>
> ( I am, because we are)
>
>
>
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