Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id IAA20760 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 1 Aug 2000 08:05:05 +0100 Message-ID: <A4400389479FD3118C9400508B0FF230040E89@DELTA> From: "Gatherer, D. (Derek)" <D.Gatherer@organon.nhe.akzonobel.nl> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Hymenoepimecis Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:01:13 +0200 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
This is fascinating, Mark:
The larvae hatch and a few weeks later inject something into the
spider. That evening, the spider host builds a hanging structure rather
than its usual insect catching web. With the web constructed, the larvae
kill and eat the spider, weaving a cocoon into the hanging structure. Even
if the larvae are plucked off, the spider continues to spin hanging
structures for a day or two.
The drug (or drugs) injected by the larvae has not been isolated. Other
wasps use dopamine variants, so it is possible the substance is
psychoactive.
This sequence reminds me of the metaphors generally used to describe
'Gatherer-meme' actions. One might say the larvae are acting like
memes. The larvae override the genetic instincts of the spider, causing a
non-genetic artifact to be created. The new artifact is produced by a
reaction to environmental forces. The artifact is then used to advance the
survival of the meme (hymenoepimecis), not the host.
Derek:
I don't think there's a meme here because there is nothing cultural in the
system. The spider's behaviour is a reaction to the environment, as you
say. For instance, when it rains I cover my head, but whether I do so using
an umbrella or a little hat made from a supermarket plastic bag (as we do
here in Glasgow) - that's the cultural thing. In humans there is both a
(instictive or quasi-instinctive) reaction to the environment, and also
cultural aspects, but in the spider it is difficult, or in fact impossible
I'd say, to identify anything cultural here.
Mark:
Alternatively, one can use the neural meme framework. Assuming the drug is
psychoactive (big guess), the drug may short circuit genetically
established neural circuits driving web creation. Thus, the drug creates a
new neural firing sequence (neural meme). The new firing sequence produces
the non-genetic web (hanging structure).
Derek:
But those 'neural ciruits driving web creation' must be largely genetically
determined. All that the psychoactive substance does is divert a few of
them to produce a slightly different outcome. The hanging structure is not
non-genetic, merely non-normal in a healthy spider. The spider's activity
is best explained as perturbation of normal genetically-programmed instinct
by an environmental agent, the toxin.
Mark:
Most would discount these usages since 'culture' in the human sense fails
to be involved.
Derek:
Not just in the human sense, but also in any of the established non-human
senses, eg chimps, birdsong, guppies etc. If a spider who had been
parasitised was able to in some way influence the behaviour of
non-parasitised spiders, then you'd have something cultural.
Mark:
On the other hand, the wasp might be construed to be a
dominant part of Costa Rican spider 'culture.' Surely, eveyone would agree
the wasps (as culture) greatly modify the genetically programmed live style
of the spiders.
Derek:
Well, I don't agree because I don't understand how wasp larvae can be part
of a spider 'culture'. I think it would be interesting to hear your
definition of 'culture'.
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