From: Steve Wallis (swallis@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue 12 Apr 2005 - 00:02:35 GMT
Dace,
Thanks for sharing your opnions. I certainly mean no
disrespect nor to challenge you on a personall level.
I am also cognizant of Einstein's quote, "You can't
get out of a situation with the same thinking that got
you into it." Therfore, I am trying on new ideas.
From another point of view, I am working from the idea
that all my existing ideas are wrong. They are
certainly good enought to get me through the day, but
they have room for improvement. If my humble brain pan
is to the soil for growing more memes, I must
occasionally weed the garden and turn the soil to
allow new and better ideas to grow. Perhaps the best
fertilizer is asking questions.
For example, why is it that so many people respond so
negatively to the suggestion that memes might be
"alive." Are we (in general) threatened by the idea
that there might be something higher than human on the
food chain? I don't know...
I don't claim any seceret universal truths. For all I
know, our concept of memes can be reduced to the
concept of electro-chemical "memories." But we might
still think of memes as living things, even if they
are not, if only to create a "place holder" in that
grand equation we use (conciously or not) to
understand te complexity of our interactions.
Thanks,
Steve
--- Dace <edace@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > From: Steve Wallis <swallis@sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > We seem to have that in common with memes, that
> some
> > are short sighted, while others strive for
> synergistic
> > benefits.
>
> Memes are neither short-sighted nor far-sighted.
> They are not sighted at
> all. A meme either replicates and spreads, or it
> doesn't and dies. It
> "strives" only to survive, to maintain its place in
> the living system, much
> like genes in an organism.
>
> > Just as we humans are entering a post-humanis era
> and
> > recognizing the importance of the environment (we
> > can't live without one), perhaps memes will learn
> that
> > theiy can improve their lot by helping we humans
> > (after all, we seem to be their environment).
>
> Memes have no idea what humans are. We don't
> register to them. We're the
> background they never look at, the wallpaper never
> noticed. Under pressure
> to replicate in a memetically saturated environment,
> memes have no
> "awareness" beyond this struggle. Oblivious to the
> roles they play in
> shaping our cultures and lives, they proliferate at
> the expense of our
> autonomy and our capacity for creative intelligence.
> The more they stamp
> our thinking, the more routinized and predictable we
> become. It's the herd
> mentality. Memes are creatures of habit, and to the
> extent that our minds
> are memetically colonized, so are we.
>
> People learn; memes replicate. That a meme evolves
> in response to changing
> cultural factors doesn't mean it has "learned"
> anything about actual human
> culture. A newly emergent meme is just another
> groove to settle into,
> another direction for the herd to take. Like genes,
> which impose traits
> onto the emerging organism without having to "know"
> it for what it is, memes
> just go about the work of self-replication and let
> conscious agents, aka
> people, sort out what's beneficial and what's toxic.
>
> ted
>
>
>
> > - --- Dace <edace@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Steve,
> > >
> > > > Sounds very chaos/complexity theory-ish.
> > > >
> > > > We might be ruled by giant meme-plexes, but we
> > > also
> > > > use smaller memes to serve ourselves. We can
> > > > deconstruct the meme-plexes into smaller
> chunks to
> > > use
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > Ah, but by then the smaller chunks have turned
> > > against us. Memes follow
> > > their own need to reproduce in a potentially
> hostile
> > > environment, not our
> > > need to bring order and coherence to our
> worldviews.
> > >
> > > ted
> > >
> > >
> > > - --- Dace <edace@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > > It occurred to me while reading a tribute to
> > > Derrida
> > > > > in The Philosopher's
> > > > > Magazine (issue 29) that there's a distinct
> > > memetic
> > > > > component to the concept
> > > > > of deconstruction. This is Alan Montefiore
> on
> > > what
> > > > > he learned from Derrida:
> > > > >
> > > > > "First and foremost perhaps-- though I doubt
> > > whether
> > > > > he would have put it
> > > > > this way-- that the meanings of terms...
> never
> > > come
> > > > > as it were in hard
> > > > > nuggets, but that under pressure they tend
> > > always to
> > > > > spread out in all
> > > > > directions, to 'disseminate,' as he himself
> > > might
> > > > > indeed have said. Thus
> > > > > one is always at risk of finding one's own
> > > meanings
> > > > > sliding away from
> > > > > oneself-- as, indeed, we have been taught
> from
> > > > > another, but not totally
> > > > > other, perspective by Freud and his diverse
> > > > > followers.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Second, that within these spreading
> > > entanglements,
> > > > > if we follow them
> > > > > through far and diligently enough, we shall
> > > > > (almost?) always find elements
> > > > > of mutual contradiction which, when set free
> to
> > > work
> > > > > as such, may, like some
> > > > > disseminating cancer, threaten the very
> > > discourse in
> > > > > which they are embedded
> > > > > with reduction to a kind of self-destroying
> > > > > incoherence."
> > > > >
> > > > > "And third, that one should not hope or
> pretend
> > > that
> > > > > even the very discourse
> > > > > within which one may attempt to formulate
> these
> > > > > insights could maintain any
> > > > > claim to a securely superior status..."
> > > > >
> > > > > Seems that the memes we launch from the head
> > > come
> > > > > back to bite us in the
> > > > > ass.
> > > > >
> > > > > ted
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list
> associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of
> Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g.
> unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
Steve Wallis, PhD student at Fielding Graduate University (with a focus on human systems and complexity theory).
Check out http://www.easygenius.net for an appreciative way to learn about yourself and others.
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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