From: M Lissack (lissacktravel@yahoo.com)
Date: Fri 13 Feb 2004 - 13:16:50 GMT
"If the laws governing natural life are found also in
society, they are
found in different forms and with specific
characteristics which do not
permit conjecture by analogy and can only be
understood by direct
observation.'
Durkheim understood what the majority of writers to
this list do not: conjecture by analogy does not a
"law" make. Analogy includes DIFFERENCE you point out
the similarities by analogy but by definition unless
the analogy is the same as "equal" there are
differences. Laws as such must take into account such
differences and therefore will be different "laws."
Differences are not contained within the stated
analogy but must be observed.
The majority of those who post here seem to have a
naive belief that the analogy of meme=gene and of
ideas spread via Darwinian evolution is a law. IT IS
ONLY A STARTING POINT.
WE need to move PAST the starting point folks. And we
need to stop trying to assert that the similarities of
an analogy override the differences.
--- Steven Thiele <sthiele@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
> Durkheim:
>
> 'The fault of the biological sociologists was not
> that they used it
> [analogy] but that they used it wrongly. Instead of
> trying to control their
> studies of society by their knowledge of biology,
> they tied to infer the
> laws of the first from the laws of the second. Such
> inference is worthless.
> If the laws governing natural life are found also in
> society, they are
> found in different forms and with specific
> characteristics which do not
> permit conjecture by analogy and can only be
> understood by direct
> observation.'
>
> So much for those who think that Durkheim's work can
> be connected to
> memetics. Memetics is hostile to all forms of
> sociology, both the good and
> the bad.
>
> Steven Thiele
> University of New England
> Armidale, NSW, Australia
>
>
> At 12:14 AM 12/02/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >Stephen (not Elliot) Gould has made important
> delineation between
> >historical origin and current utility. Durkheim
> says some pertinent
> >stuff in his _The Rules of Sociological Method_
> (1938. The Free Press.
> >New York. translated by Solavay and Mueller) that
> one might want to keep
> >in mind when reading what Gould says about Durkheim
> in his brick-like
> >magnum opus _The Structure of Evolutionary Theory_.
> Durkheim says (page
> >90):
> >
> >(bq)"To show how a fact is useful in not to explain
> how it originated or
> >why it is what it is. The uses which it serves
> presuppose the specific
> >properties characterizing it but do not create
> them. The need we have of
> >things cannot give them existence, nor can it
> confer their specific
> >nature upon them. It is to causes of another sort
> that they owe their
> >existence. The idea we have of their utility may
> indeed motivate us to
> >put these forces to work and to elicit from them
> their characteristic
> >effects, but it will not enable us to produce these
> effects out of
> >nothing." (eq)
> >
> >This quote is in the context of Durkheim
> criticizing a method employed
> >by Spencer and Comte whom he mentions in the
> preceding paragraph, but at
> >least to my eyes it looks like Durkheim is making
> the distinction
> >between historic origin and currect utility that
> Gould focuses upon.
> >Correct?
> >
> >Now in Gould's book _The Structure of Evolutionary
> Theory_ (2002. The
> >Belknap Press of Harvard University Press.
> Cambridge, Massachusetts) he
> >is critical of Durkheim's apparent lack of
> knowledge of this distinction
> >or his not using it in a certain case. Citing
> someone named Catton for
> >critique of Durkheim, Gould says that Durkheim was
> unaware of functional
> >shift which he could have gleaned from familiarity
> with Darwin. Gould is
> >also impressed by Nietzsche's knowledge of this.
> Gould focuses on
> >Durkheim's work on division of labor as elaborated
> by Catton. He notes
> >Durkheim being correct on the utility of the
> division of labor, but then
> >Gould says (page 1239]:
> >
> >(bq) "[Durkheim] then erred in assuming that this
> current utility also
> >permits the inference that division of labor arose,
> in explicit analogy
> >with speciation, as a direct adaptation for its
> current function of
> >reducing competition and stabilizing both social
> and economic systems."
> >(eq)
> >
> >I'll need to track down the source Gould cites
> (ie-Catton). I'm not
> >familiar with Durkheim's work on division of labor.
> Maybe Durkheim did
> >overlook the distinction between current utility
> and historic origin in
> >the context of division of labor, but
> interestingly, as I think the
> >quote of Durkheim I provided above shows, Durkheim
> was not ignorant of
> >the distinction itself, which if he failed to
> utilize it in the instance
> >of division of labor if this use was apt, would
> make one wonder why he
> >failed to do so.
> >
> >Gould might have been quite interested in this
> quote as it seems to
> >dovetail with his arguments on the importance of
> this distinction.
> >
> >I pulled this discussion of Durkheim from Gould's
> index. I haven't had a
> >chance to read the whole brick from front to back.
> >
> >The citation for Gould's source on Durkheim is:
> >
> >Catton WR, Jr. 1998. Darwin, Durkheim, and
> Mutualism. In _Advances in
> >Human Ecology_, Volume 7. JAI Press Inc. pp. 89-139
> >
> >
>
>===============================================================
> >This was distributed via the memetics list
> associated with the
> >Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of
> Information Transmission
> >For information about the journal and the list
> (e.g. unsubscribing)
> >see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
>
===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list
> associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of
> Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g.
> unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri 13 Feb 2004 - 13:27:57 GMT