From: M Lissack (lissacktravel@yahoo.com)
Date: Sat 31 Jan 2004 - 22:30:34 GMT
Ted writes:
"Its [memetics]role as a social science is to help
clarify the mechanics of cultural evolution."
if this is the case then memetics has to have a unit
of analysis which can have a describable and
observable mechanics
if all we have is "black box" mechanics we have
clarified nothing
--- Dace <edace@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > From: Keith Henson <hkhenson@rogers.com>
> >
> > At 09:31 PM 30/01/04 -0500, jeremy wrote:
> >
> > snip
> >
> > > Lashley's (1950)
> > >thirty-year research agenda suggests that memes
> cannot be "a [distinct]
> > >pattern
> > >in the brain". Lashley found that the brain is a
> learning machine, with
> all
> > >areas acting as worthy substitutes for any other
> area; lesions reduce
> > >learning
> > >in proportional amounts (i.e., more destruction
> of brain, greater
> > >complexity of
> > >task --> more disruption).
> >
> > I am familiar with this work. It does not present
> any problems for memes
> > being patterns, even distinct patterns in the
> brain. I could use
> holograms
> > as an example, or better, Stego. A friend of
> mine, Romano Mochado, wrote
> > this program which distributes the bits of a
> message into the lowest bits
> > of a large graphic image. The fact that you can't
> see a text file
> > distributed into the low bits of an image does not
> prevent it from being
> > there.
> >
> > Same way with memories or learning. They
> certainly are distributed widely
> > in the brain. There is also no doubt whatsoever
> that they are there.
>
> An idea, whether remembered or just now learned,
> cannot exist in physical
> form. The problem is that atoms and molecules, no
> matter how they're
> arranged, consist only of themselves. The rule for
> matter is simple: A = A.
> Ideas, on the other hand, involve "symbol" or "sign"
> or "representation."
> The rule for representation is quite different: A =
> B.
>
> You will never get a set of atoms, regardless of how
> complex the pattern
> into which they're arranged, to represent another
> set of atoms. The pattern
> of atoms is simply itself, nothing more, nothing
> less. This is the cruel
> lesson of physics, and there are no exceptions.
>
> We apply our naturalistic understanding to the
> farthest-flung reaches of the
> universe, but when it comes to the contents of our
> own heads, we toss out
> everything we know, finding in brains a mystical
> property that exempts them
> from otherwise ironclad rules. Everywhere else A =
> A. But peer inside the
> skull, and suddenly A = B.
>
> When we look at ourselves from the external point of
> view-- the way a
> chemist would examine us-- we find no ideas and no
> memes, only atoms and
> chemicals arranged in patterns. It's only when we
> reflect on ourselves
> directly, from our own point of view, that we find
> minds and ideas and
> memes.
>
> What gets us into trouble is our linguistic-based
> tendency to posit separate
> identities for "mind" and "brain." We think we're
> dealing with two things
> here, one of which is necessarily illusory and
> therefore reducible to the
> other. In fact, neither is reducible to the other
> because there's only one
> thing to begin with. "Brain" is "mind" from the
> external point of view,
> while "mind" is "brain" from the internal point of
> view.
>
> Memetics requires the internal point of view and
> cannot ever be reconciled
> with a strictly external, physicalist understanding.
> It will never be a
> "hard" science in the sense of physics and
> chemistry. Its role as a social
> science is to help clarify the mechanics of cultural
> evolution.
>
> Ted
>
>
>
>
===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list
> associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of
> Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g.
> unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
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===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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