RE: I find it sad yet hilarious...

From: Lawrence DeBivort (debivort@umd5.umd.edu)
Date: Tue 09 Sep 2003 - 03:25:09 GMT

  • Next message: Scott Chase: "Norplant as social engineering device?"

    A couple of questions, Scott:

    What is "hypnopedia"?

    And, how are you defining "social engineering"?

    I read Brave New World several decades ago -- that and 1984, what harbingers. Lord of the Flies, too, I suppose.

    Cheers, Lawry

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
    > Of Scott Chase
    > Sent: Mon, September 08, 2003 7:44 PM
    > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > Subject: RE: I find it sad yet hilarious...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
    > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > >To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
    > >Subject: RE: I find it sad yet hilarious...
    > >Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:14:22 -0400
    > >
    > >To Jeff Drabble and Brent Scofield,
    > >
    > >Welcome to the list. We are usually better than you see us these
    > last days.
    > >
    > >The list is focused on memes as natural evolutionary actors, and there is
    > >close attention to the biology of genes and their (metaphorical)
    > analogy to
    > >memes. There are several people on this list who have done solid and
    > >seminal work on these questions. There has also been considerable
    > >discussion of the taxonomy of memes and various types of memes.
    > >
    > >Memetic engineering has attracted less attention, and there is a general
    > >feeling that it isn't possible to engineer memes, or if it is, that it is
    > >nothing more than what advertisers already do.
    > >
    > I'm in the group that's critical of memetic engineeering, just as
    > I'm a wee
    > bit cautious of social engineering, especially as social engineering may
    > overlap with memetic and/or genetic engineering for the aspiring
    > technocrat.
    >
    > Read Julian Huxley's sibling Aldous's book _Brave New World_ for
    > a seminal
    > work on what could result when caste oriented cloning and behavioral
    > conditioning overlap. Ironic that _Brave New World_ was penned by the
    > grandson of "Darwin's bulldog" and the brother of a crafter of the "New
    > Synthesis". One can only wonder how much of Julian's work in embryology
    > influenced Aldous's thinking when writing his famous dystopian book.
    >
    > Hypnopedia anyone? And how far off would hypnopedia be from NLP
    > or memetic
    > engineering?
    > >
    > >My own personal view is that memetic engineering is possible,
    > and that it
    > >is
    > >more than what advertisers do, but that this list, for reasons
    > that you can
    > >anticipate from the caliber of the discussions you have
    > witnessed here, not
    > >the place to do so.
    > >
    > A very teensy weensy minority of us are actually *critical* or
    > *skeptical*
    > of memetics as a science *and* a tool for social engineering
    > ("eumemics?").
    > We wouldn't want newbies exposed to that sort of low caliber thinking now
    > would we?
    >
    > As for Dees's obligatory dwelling on the Middle East, don't
    > respond to him.
    > I haven't. How many K are taken up by responses versus the posts
    > eliciting
    > the responses.
    > >
    > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
    > [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
    > > > Of Jeff Drabble
    > > > Sent: Mon, September 08, 2003 6:22 PM
    > > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > > > Subject: Re: I find it sad yet hilarious...
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > On Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:32:57 -0700, you:
    > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >I joined this mailing list about a week ago, hoping to first
    > listen in
    > >on
    > > > >and then eventually join in discussions surrounding the concept
    > > > of memes and
    > > > >the development on memetics. My problem with your posts is not
    > > > the politics
    > > > >of them, but the vague and undeveloped ways in which you relate your
    > > > >interpretation of current issues to memetics. You do use words like
    > > > >"memebot" and "memeplex" in some of your posts, and while I think new
    > > > >vocabulary is super-fun, I also think you should at very least spend
    > >some
    > > > >time with each of your posts relating what makes it relevant to
    > > > this mailing
    > > > >list. The concept that ideas spread is not new to memetics, and if
    > >people
    > > > >post every article which contains in it something about the
    > spread of a
    > > > >particular idea or the development of an idea, or the definition
    > > > of an idea,
    > > > >etc., then this list will be innundated with links to articles
    > > > and peices of
    > > > >articles.
    > > >
    > > > I also subscribed about a week ago and was about to unsubscribe for
    > > > these very reasons. I often look forward to a television show coming
    > > > that purports to further our understanding of some scientific issue
    > > > and am usually very disappointed by the hollow, surface-scratching,
    > > > results-rather-than-causes presentations which emerge (doesn't stop me
    > > > watching in hope for the odd gem, though).
    > > >
    > > > As I started to read what was posted to this list I was rapidly
    > > > getting the feeling that the same thing was happening here. I'll now
    > > > stay a little longer to see what emerges. So far, people just seem to
    > > > be taking positions, which, to me, is as far as you can get from
    > > > scientific discovery and the propagation of ideas from the results of
    > > > that discovery.
    > > >
    > > > There should be a lot more questions and fewer people who are adamant
    > > > that their take is the real deal. In my experience finding the answer
    > > > to a question opens up ten more, equally perplexing and interesting
    > > > questions. Those who just dish out the "answers" are as close-minded
    > > > as those who grasp at religion to steady their anxiety about the world
    > > > and their place in it.
    > > >
    > > > Jeff Drabble
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > ===============================================================
    > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    > >===============================================================
    > >This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > >Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > >For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > >see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    > >
    >
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    >
    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    >

    =============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit

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