From: Richard Brodie (richard@brodietech.com)
Date: Tue 08 Jul 2003 - 22:51:49 GMT
Keith,
[RB]
>What makes a replicating information pattern a meme (rather than some
other
>kind of replicator) is the fact that it replicates because of the
influence
>it has on a human mind when the information is in the mind.
[KH]
<<There is certainly an important class of "convert the heathen" memes
that
fits this definition. But an awful lot of meme replication is done
blindly,
automatic backups of computer files, the computers the duplicate these
list
messages, and people who copied the Mayan glyphs before they were
understood. Printing is a marginal case because the people who do the
printing often have no idea of what they are replicating even if someone
else does. The analogy here might be genes that are put in bacteria (or
picked up by bacteria) and duplicated without being transcribed.>>
All those automatic processes you describe are copying artifacts (some
of which can be fruitfully viewed as replicators in their own right).
Some of that copying may aid in meme transmission, but only to the
extent the result of the copying is more likely to cause the replication
of a meme in a new mind. The simple fact of copying artifacts does not
equate to meme transmission. In particular, automatic backup of computer
files is a very poor candidate for meme transmission since any
information there is attenuated in a sea of bits.
Every single meme is a meme because its presence in a mind influences
the behavior of its host such that more copies of it get created in
other minds. "convert the heathen" is an obvious example but so are my
phone number and the time World Poker Tour airs Wednesday nights.
[RB]
>If you don't
>have this constraint, there is no difference between a meme and some
other
>kind of replicator such as a gene or a computer virus.
[KH]
<<I *fully* agree with you on the need for a constraint to differentiate
between replicator classes. But I think the "active locus" or place
where
they have effect is enough to distinguish between memes, genes and
computer
viruses. Though one can set up weird corner cases, genes have influence
in
cells, computer viruses only in the proper computer and memes are
translated into behavior influences in minds.>>
Kick me, but I can't see the difference between what you just wrote and
what I wrote above...
>What makes a replicating information pattern a meme (rather than some
other
>kind of replicator) is the fact that it replicates because of the
influence
>it has on a human mind when the information is in the mind.
... and disagreed with. I'm scratching my head! Can you elaborate? Do we
have a disagreement at all?
<<Note that I don't require *human* minds, though for certain human
minds are
the active places for the vast majority of memes in our little corner of
the galaxy. It is clear that chimps have culture and that their culture
varies from place to place. Some groups crack and eat nuts using hammer
and
anvil stones. Others who could eat nuts don't because they lack this
cultural element and have not invented it. "Potato washing" is an
example
of a monkey meme where we even know which bright monkey invented the
meme
and how it spread. Birds drinking cream out of milk bottles is another
example as is the bright parrots that figured out how to eat the kidneys
out of sheep in New Zealand and spread *this* behavior to other
parrots. (It took killing all the parrots infected with this meme to
get
it out of the parrot population.)>>
Agreed, I came to much the same conclusion in my book.
Richard Brodie
www.memecentral.com
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Tue 08 Jul 2003 - 23:01:23 GMT