From: Dace (edace@earthlink.net)
Date: Wed 18 Jun 2003 - 19:07:21 GMT
> From: "Wade T. Smith" <wade.t.smith@verizon.net>
>
> On Tuesday, June 17, 2003, at 01:57 PM, Ted wrote:
>
> > [Any] model of memetics is useful only to the extent that it clearly
> > demarcates memetic and non-memetic cultural transmission.
>
> Such demarcation is _mandatory_ for memetics, because memetics is a
> discussion of culture, not a discussion of information. And, excuse my
> amendment to your quote, because, there is more than one model of
> memetics, although which one is useful is conjectural.
>
> > This is a very illuminating example of the difference between ideas
> > that passively replicate via human consciousness and self-replicating
> > (memetic) ideas.
>
> And the model of memetics that defines the meme as a self-replicating
> idea is the one most mistaken about culture.
Memetics is a model of culture based on the "meme" as self-replicating idea
or unit of information. The key is recognizing which ideas are
self-replicating and which ones are passively replicated through human
consciousness (and are therefore non-memetic). In other words, memetics can
help us understand culture, but it can never replace cognitive and social
psychology.
> There is no way to
> demarcate how an idea replicates, or even if such a process is
> possible. Indeed, your entire sentence above is nonsensical and
> illogical, by any definition of 'idea'.
If I understand you, the idea you're trying to express has just replicated
in my mind. This does not make it a meme, as it *passively* replicated
according to my cognitive capacities. If it becomes a habitual way for you
to think, then it may be described as a habit. It it becomes a habitual way
for both of us to think, then it's a meme.
> From: "Richard Brodie" <richard@brodietech.com>
>
> [TD]
> > [Any] model of memetics is useful only to the extent that it clearly
> > demarcates memetic and non-memetic cultural transmission.
>
> [WS]
> <<Such demarcation is _mandatory_ for memetics, because memetics is a
> discussion of culture, not a discussion of information.>>
>
> Memetics is a model of cultural evolution through differential selection
of
> replicators.
>
> [TD]
> > This is a very illuminating example of the difference between ideas
> > that passively replicate via human consciousness and self-replicating
> > (memetic) ideas.
>
> I missed the example, but there is no difference between the two other
than
> point of view. It is a conceptual error to think of a replicator as having
> conscious intention or physical movement. It can do all its replication
> passively.
My example addresses a fundamental difference between old-style cultural
imperialism and the new-fangled version known as globalization. Whereas
cultural imperialism relied on the use of force to get people to stop
practicing their own cultural forms and take up "superior" Western forms,
the new way works more like a virus. Promotion of Western cultural products
inculcates desire among local peoples around the world to obtain these
products. The owners of McDonald's aren't intentionally trying to change
cultures around the world. They just want to sell hamburgers. The idea of
eating fast-food hamburgers is spread by the individuals "infected" with the
desire. Rather than being forced to eat McDonald's, people do so
voluntarily, and in the process, spread the virus to their friends and
family. The idea self-replicates from person to person.
While globalization propagates memetically, old-style cultural imperialism
propagated through conscious intention. It's the difference between the
idea self-replicating versus the idea replicating passively through human
intervention. Cultural evolution is not necessarily memetic. Sometimes it
involves adaptation of a non-memetic form of information transfer into a
memetic form.
Ted
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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