From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Wed 18 Jun 2003 - 18:04:21 GMT
From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com>
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Precision of replication
Date sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:59:43 -0400
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>
>
>
> >From: joedees@bellsouth.net
> >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >Subject: Re: Precision of replication
> >Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 00:31:02 -0500
> >
> >From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com>
> >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >Subject: Re: Precision of replication
> >Date sent: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 01:06:15 -0400
> >Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: joedees@bellsouth.net
> > > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > >Subject: Re: Precision of replication
> > > >Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 23:35:42 -0500
> > > >
> > > >From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com>
> > > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > >Subject: Re: Precision of replication
> > > >Date sent: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 23:18:07 -0400
> > > >Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
> > > > > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > > >To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> > > > > >Subject: Precision of replication
> > > > > >Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:59:49 -0400
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Wade said:
> > > > > > > Replication, mutation, and selection.>>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Richard said:
> > > > > > > There is no replication because you have similar, not
> > > > > > > identical, performances. Replication means identical. The
> > > > > > > four-note motif, on a relative scale, is the most
> > > > > > > identifiable meme in Beethoven's Fifth. Your
> > > > > > > "observational tests" depend upon memes in the minds of
> > > > > > > the observers. Also, culture evolves in many other ways
> > > > > > > besides observers becoming performers. A reader of "Taming
> > > > > > > of the Shrew" may write a musical version which is
> > > > > >then
> > > > > > > performed by an entirely different set of people who read
> > > > > > > the book.
> > > > > >Also,
> > > > > > > you have far too much of your mechanism in your vague,
> > > > > > > all-encompassing "venue", which may as well be God for all
> > > > > > > its scientific usefulness.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You are essentially saying that, given time and a culture,
> > > > > > > people will behave similarly to the way they've seen
> > > > > > > others behave, but different.
> > > > > >You
> > > > > > > in no way explain these differences or predict direction.
> > > > > > > It's not a model.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >In our view of memetic dissemination, the replication need
> > > > > >not, and will rarely be identical. Yet we call it memetic and
> > > > > >this view seems to work well in our work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Why is dissemination nor identical? Because each person (or
> > > > > >group of people, for we also think of memes as being able to
> > > > > >disseminate to and through groups) will have his own criteria
> > > > > >for acceptance which may require some modification of the
> > > > > >meme prior to acceptance. So as they disseminate, memes also
> > > > > >tend to mutate. The 'power' of the meme lies in part in its
> > > > > >ability to withstand such mutation, i.e. to be accepted whole
> > > > > >and as close to identically by the recipient.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Notwithstanding this lack of identical dissemination,
> > > > > >prediction of acceptance is possible, particularly if one can
> > > > > >also model the acceptance criteria of the recipient. Such
> > > > > >modeling is possible, but we do not consider the methods for
> > > > > >doing so to be part of the field of memetics.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Does this fit with your thinking, Richard? Wade? Others?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > I could be misreading him, in which case there's been no
> > > > > replication bewtween our minds, but itseems Richard is holding
> > > > > that replication implies identity, not similarity. He has
> > > > > written a book on memes so is an authority.
> > > > >
> > > > > The so-called "meme" of the "brain" is hardly identical
> > > > > between people. The people may spell brain the same, but what
> > > > > the word means to a trained neuroscientist is probably
> > > > > different than what it means to a cultural studies major or
> > > > > some swordfisherman from Cape Cod. The concept of
> > > > > "brain"probably varies for an individual through their
> > > > > lifetime, say from their first glance at a picture in a
> > > > > elememtary school textbookto perhaps what they learn in colege
> > > > > psych classes to late what hey may have long forgotten from
> > > > > these classes due to disuse.I fail to see anything
> > > > > sufficiently "selfsame" (obligatory Deesian lingo) across
> > > > > individuals or within indiviaduals to qualify as beng
> > > > > identitical. Similarity could be a stretch in itself.
> > > > >
> > > >What is closer to identical, although itself not entirely
> > > >identical (nothing being absolute - on principle), is the
> > > >relationship between the neural meme-encodings and the cognitive
> > > >gestalts, or complexures, to which they accommodate and are
> > > >assimilated. This is what allows both of them to produce
> > > >transmitting/communicating behavior by an actor that is
> > > >recognizeable by an observer/recipient as an encoding of the
> > > >selfsame meme (just as I could recognize the message "If you but
> > > >believe in Jesus, your soul will be saved" whether it was
> > > >transmitted/communicated via one language or another - say,
> > > >English and ASL (American Sign Language) - even though each
> > > >involves entirely different performances - if I were coversant
> > > >in decoding both encoding forms). And why? Because the selfsame
> > > >meme/message is in each case learned, stored, accessed, intended
> > > >and meant.
> > > >
> > > And yet what do Jesus, salavation, and soul mean across inviduals
> > > who are as different as say, a born again Christian, and atheist,
> > > a Satanist and a Hindu. Heck, I'm trying to visualize Jesus, but
> > > he may have been blond haired and blue eyed or had African
> > > features for all I know. I'm trying to figure out what it would
> > > mean to be salved and I surely don't want to get into that "soul"
> > > mess. All these question arise, likely, from the web of
> > > associtions these words carry along due to my personal history
> > > which differs from yours. How selfsame are my associations to
> > > yours I wonder.
> > >
> >What matters is whether you are prompted to replicate/proliferate the
> >meme in turn. As I said before, identical is an unattainable
> >absolute, cognitive-gestalt speaking. But, although the concept of
> >being saved by a belief in the divinity of Jesus is a bit different
> >for each believer, the idea of attempting to save others via
> >communicating the concept to others has historically, albeit, to my
> >mind, regrettably, considering all the unfortunate (and itself
> >variable between both individual and groups of believers - see
> >denominations and heresies) baggage it has carried in its train,
> >shown remarkable durability across individual variations, and the
> >very idea of heresies is itself a normalizing hook attempting to
> >enforce, with mixed success, uniformity across divergent historical
> >epochs, populations and understandings.
> >
> Yet if we are to take what I understand Richard to be saying, that
> replication implies identity and that for something to have replicated
> it must be identical across individuals, not even this *tendency* to
> uniformity qualifies. If replication means identical copying, once we
> get beyond the spelling of Jesus's name, what are we left with? Look
> at all the denominations of Christianity there are and tell me how
> much identical copying you see.
>
> If identical copying of ideas betwwen the minds of individuals is the
> acid test of cultural replicators, how fundamental to an understanding
> of human behavior can memetics be? Sounds like more of a sidelight to
> the messy nitty gritty.
>
Variation and mutation are ubiquitous, and they are necessary for
evolution. The fact that multiple variations/mutations can continue to
exist just means that there can be multistable viable selection
alternatives once the characterizing/identifying essentials are fulfilled.
Nevertheless, there are some instances in which such ideal identicality
is closely , even asymptotically, approached. For instance, the
Christian Great Charter ("Go ye therefore and teach all nations, etc....")
is the command for the memeset holder to obsessively replicate to all
and sundry whichever variation of the Christian memeset the person
holds, and it is known and memorized, word for word, in many
languages across the globe.
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> > > =============================================================== >
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the >
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> > > ===============================================================
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> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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