From: Scott Chase (ecphoric@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed 18 Jun 2003 - 05:06:15 GMT
>From: joedees@bellsouth.net
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Precision of replication
>Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 23:35:42 -0500
>
>From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com>
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Precision of replication
>Date sent: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 23:18:07 -0400
>Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
> > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > >To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
> > >Subject: Precision of replication
> > >Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:59:49 -0400
> > >
> > >
> > >Wade said:
> > > > Replication, mutation, and selection.>>
> > >
> > >
> > >Richard said:
> > > > There is no replication because you have similar, not identical,
> > > > performances. Replication means identical. The four-note motif, on
> > > > a relative scale, is the most identifiable meme in Beethoven's
> > > > Fifth. Your "observational tests" depend upon memes in the minds
> > > > of the observers. Also, culture evolves in many other ways besides
> > > > observers becoming performers. A reader of "Taming of the Shrew"
> > > > may write a musical version which is
> > >then
> > > > performed by an entirely different set of people who read the
> > > > book.
> > >Also,
> > > > you have far too much of your mechanism in your vague,
> > > > all-encompassing "venue", which may as well be God for all its
> > > > scientific usefulness.
> > > >
> > > > You are essentially saying that, given time and a culture, people
> > > > will behave similarly to the way they've seen others behave, but
> > > > different.
> > >You
> > > > in no way explain these differences or predict direction. It's not
> > > > a model.
> > >
> > >
> > >In our view of memetic dissemination, the replication need not, and
> > >will rarely be identical. Yet we call it memetic and this view seems
> > >to work well in our work.
> > >
> > >Why is dissemination nor identical? Because each person (or group of
> > >people, for we also think of memes as being able to disseminate to
> > >and through groups) will have his own criteria for acceptance which
> > >may require some modification of the meme prior to acceptance. So as
> > >they disseminate, memes also tend to mutate. The 'power' of the meme
> > >lies in part in its ability to withstand such mutation, i.e. to be
> > >accepted whole and as close to identically by the recipient.
> > >
> > >Notwithstanding this lack of identical dissemination, prediction of
> > >acceptance is possible, particularly if one can also model the
> > >acceptance criteria of the recipient. Such modeling is possible, but
> > >we do not consider the methods for doing so to be part of the field
> > >of memetics.
> > >
> > >Does this fit with your thinking, Richard? Wade? Others?
> > >
> > >
> > I could be misreading him, in which case there's been no replication
> > bewtween our minds, but itseems Richard is holding that replication
> > implies identity, not similarity. He has written a book on memes so is
> > an authority.
> >
> > The so-called "meme" of the "brain" is hardly identical between
> > people. The people may spell brain the same, but what the word means
> > to a trained neuroscientist is probably different than what it means
> > to a cultural studies major or some swordfisherman from Cape Cod. The
> > concept of "brain"probably varies for an individual through their
> > lifetime, say from their first glance at a picture in a elememtary
> > school textbookto perhaps what they learn in colege psych classes to
> > late what hey may have long forgotten from these classes due to
> > disuse.I fail to see anything sufficiently "selfsame" (obligatory
> > Deesian lingo) across individuals or within indiviaduals to qualify as
> > beng identitical. Similarity could be a stretch in itself.
> >
>What is closer to identical, although itself not entirely identical
>(nothing
>being absolute - on principle), is the relationship between the neural
>meme-encodings and the cognitive gestalts, or complexures, to which
>they accommodate and are assimilated. This is what allows both of
>them to produce transmitting/communicating behavior by an actor that
>is recognizeable by an observer/recipient as an encoding of the
>selfsame meme (just as I could recognize the message "If you but
>believe in Jesus, your soul will be saved" whether it was
>transmitted/communicated via one language or another - say, English
>and ASL (American Sign Language) - even though each involves
>entirely different performances - if I were coversant in decoding both
>encoding forms). And why? Because the selfsame meme/message is
>in each case learned, stored, accessed, intended and meant.
>
And yet what do Jesus, salavation, and soul mean across inviduals who are as
different as say, a born again Christian, and atheist, a Satanist and a
Hindu. Heck, I'm trying to visualize Jesus, but he may have been blond
haired and blue eyed or had African features for all I know. I'm trying to
figure out what it would mean to be salved and I surely don't want to get
into that "soul" mess. All these question arise, likely, from the web of
associtions these words carry along due to my personal history which differs
from yours. How selfsame are my associations to yours I wonder.
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> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
>
>
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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