From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Thu 22 May 2003 - 17:05:11 GMT
>
> On Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 09:34 PM, memetics-digest wrote:
>
> > [memes] macrolocations, in particular brain lobes, is already known
>
> I'm very sorry, Joe, but I am aware of no study that has as its
> subject "fMRI shows location of memes".
>
> In my admittedly short perusal of the scientific literature, I've
> encountered many studies using fMRI that are locating and identifying
> areas of the brain and activities of the brain involved with memory
> and with many other things, but not memes.
>
> However, from all you've said and all the ways you use it, it strongly
> appears that by 'meme' you actually mean 'memory' and nothing else.
>
Scroll to bottom to see that this is false. However, it is true that memes
would be stored where memories are stored, since, although not
identical with memories, memes are a subclass of them.
>
> Okay, it's a large playground. Your definition of meme, shown to be an
> element of the working of the brain, is fine. This is a fledgling
> exercise, memetics, after all.
>
> But, I'm still concerned over how you will manage to claim that any
> old memory is necessary and sufficient for cultural evolution.
>
> After all, elephants have memories.
>
They also *may* have a primitive subsonic language. But is it an
instinctual collection of calls, like dolphinsong, which never changes, or
can creativity be involved, like in whalesong, which does change? That
decides whether or not we may be able to consider it to be a language;
for now, the jury is still out.
>
> And, ultimately, for memetics, we need to ask the question asked at
> http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~mnkylab/lecture.pdf -
>
> "What test would make this a science?--we want predictability, not
> explanatory, power."
>
Easy. Have two people tell two others to be at a certain place at a
certain time (the same place/time for both), and perform a specific
action there/then. One will communicate this message by speaking, the
other by writing. The two pairs will be separated for these
transmissions so there is no possibility of cross-contamination. If the
two others both show up at that certain place/time and perform that
selfsame action, then obviously the message is independent of its
differing encoding performances.
>
> > how
> > can one admit the efficacy of education and deny that there is some
> > cognitive mechanism that allows us to learn, store, access and
> > repeat wthat which our education has taught us?
>
> We can't, of course- there is obviously some cognitive mechanism
> behind all of this and its in the brain. But, honestly, simply saying
> that and then saying the mechanism must involve memes, is, well,
> specious, and I'm being polite.
>
> So, from all I've seen from all of your arguments, you always have
> meant 'meme' to be synonymous with memory.,
>
No, meme is the subclass of memories that may be communicated to
others. This requires a common symbol system called a language, and
also means that raw perceptions, although memories, cannot be
memes, as they cannot be communicated, although descriptions of
them can be.
>
> - Wade
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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