Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA12646 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:50:14 +0100 Subject: Re: Criticisms of Blackmore's approach Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:47:29 -0400 x-sender: wsmith1@camail2.harvard.edu x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, Claritas est veritas From: "Wade T.Smith" <wade_smith@harvard.edu> To: "memetics list" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <20000612124755.AAA2190@camailp.harvard.edu@[128.103.125.215]> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On 06/12/00 04:56, Robin Faichney said this-
>Whether one could learn a language solely by reading and
>writing, with no oral experience, I don't know, but I don't see
>any reason to rule out the possibility.
I think that Joe ("is there an instance of anyone
who has learned to write with comprehension without first being
able to speak") was going for learn-in-the-first-place, evidence for
which, to my knowledge, there is none. Once one has learned a language,
then the possibility of learning another without ever hearing it is
constructed. That person may never be able to converse with a native of
the learned language, but they could correspond through letters surely.
But forcing writing to be a necessary element of memetic transmission
seems wrong to me. Presentation of symbols, yes, with all that goes in
that boat.
The way we present our symbols is memetics (in this forum), although it's
been called many things. I call it aesthetics. It is also grammar spread
large, and persuasion, and seduction, and coercion, and hypnosis, and
suggestion, and tyranny, and following, and proportion, and color, and
perspective- and all the other tools of symbolic representation. Making a
place for a meme (all too commonly a simple replace-holder for the word
'idea' IMHO) is not a leap in any respect, and calling the presentation
'engineering' is not either. But, I really don't think we really know
what works at this stage, if we ever will, and so I really need to see
the blueprints from this memetic engineering construction, and if the
so-called engineers want me to think they actually _made_ a unique
building, they have to bring me into it.
And yes, there is something, IMHO, to the notion that there is a
value-added to imitation in the human, where language seems to be the
expressed component, and where perhaps, the meme could be useful. But
where to put it?
- Wade
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