From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Mon 19 May 2003 - 18:13:39 GMT
> on 5/19/03 9:32 AM, Richard Brodie at richard@brodietech.com wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I'm having a great deal of difficulty understanding you. I know
> > you're not saying you don't believe knowledge can be taught. Right?
> > You're not saying that, are you?
>
> No, I'm not saying that.
>
> > So you must be saying something else. I'm guessing you are
> > saying something like you don't believe the physical representation
> > of knowledge in someone's brain gets replicated.
>
> Yes, I'm saying at least that.
>
> > If that's what you're saying,
> > let me point out that that's not a requirement for memetics any more
> > than it is necessary for any matter to be transferred when you
> > download software from a server.
>
> Bad analogy.
>
> Jack and Jill are sitting in the park under an apple tree. They see
> an apple front of them on the ground. Each is looking at the apple so
> there is something in Jack's brain that corresponds to the apple and
> something in Jane's brain that corresponds to the apple. But there is
> no replication from one brain to the other. Each is looking at and
> recognizing the apple independently of the other.
>
> What I'm arguing is that the situation is not much different if
> they're sitting on a bus and Jack writes "apple" on a piece of paper
> and hands it to Jill. Now they've both got something in their heads
> that corresponds to "apple." But there has been no replication from
> one mind to the other, no "downloading" of information from one brain
> to the other.
>
> In this second scenario imagine that Jack and Jill never knew one
> another prior to sitting down on the bus. Whatever it is the arises
> in Jill's head when she sees the piece of paper was there before she
> ever met Jack. Nothing has been transferred from Jack's head to
> Jill's. All that has happened is that Jack has caused Jill to call up
> something in her mind that corresponds to "apple." It may be more or
> less "like" what is in Jack's mind. But it has not been transmitted
> or replicated from one to the other. Those concepts don't tell you
> what is going on.
>
> Now, what if, instead of "apple," Jack had written "quantum
> indeterminacy," or "justice" or "meme" on the paper? What's the
> chance that those words would evoke more or less the same thing in
> Jill's head that already exists in Jack's?
>
Sure, both Jack and Jill were taught the meaning of words as children,
by their caregivers, who first used the words while showing them their
concrete referents, then used those words that had been learned to
help explain the meanings of other words. But word strings can be
unique. If Jack wrote down on a piece of paper, or simply said (same
example, different action encoding mode and recipient perceptual path)
"I love you and want to marry you, Jill, and your father, holding what I
hope and pray will be our engagement ring, is waiting to board the bus
at the next stop. When he gets on, will you grant me the supreme
honor of agreeing to be my wife?", the chances that that particular
message (sign string) had ever been presented to her before, or that
she had made that association on her own, is practically nil. As it is
with many sentences that occur in common text or discourse.
Definitely, information has been transmitted and received. The action
that follows (yes or no) will depend upon how that information
assimilates with and is accommodated to Jill's existing memeplexure, or
cognitive gestalt.
>
> William L. Benzon
> 708 Jersey Avenue, Apt. 2A
> Jersey City, NJ 07302
> 201 217-1010
>
> "You won't get a wild heroic ride to heaven on pretty little
> sounds."--George Ives
>
> Mind-Culture Coevolution: http://asweknowit.ca/evcult/
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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