Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA21995 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:25:31 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: wolfe.umd.edu: debivort owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 09:23:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Lawrence H. de Bivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> X-Sender: debivort@wolfe.umd.edu To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Imitation or transmission? In-Reply-To: <20000610110615.30526.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0006100907520.18957-100000@wolfe.umd.edu> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Good morning,
Diana, you have put finger on two of the key differences among
memeticists: whether memes should be viewed a mere cultural analogs to
genes (and their consequent linkage to ideas of natural selection), and
whether memes should be viewed as 'natural' objects that are 'just doing
their thing.'
I have suggested and continue to believe, that linking memes patterns and
roles to those of genes does not serve us, and in my own work, we have
long since moved past this point. Yes, the analogy was initially useful as
a brainstorming device, but it turned out that that was all it was.
On the second question, we have simply made a pragmatic, definitional
decision to come at memes from the engineering POV. We could come to more
interesting understandings of memes this way. Having done this -- reached
an understanding of the design qualities and properties of memes -- it
then allowed us to tackle many of the questions posed in this list, such
as, _why_ do some beliefs spread, and not others; how should we view the
deterioration of fidelity of the belief as it spreads; what happens when
two or more incompatible memes come into contact, etc.
We chose not to get into the actual brain cognition mechanics, as science
still seems pretty up in the air about how the brain really works, or at
least how cognition and the distinctions betweenn conscious and
unconscious processes work, and as from the point of view of memes that is
a more general question rather than one of memetics. We try to follow the
thinking and the discoveries in this field with great interest.
Memetics, it seems to me, is a wide-open field inwhich many different
approaches and foci are possible, but it is still a field in formation and
so there is much argumentation about what it comprehends and what its
tools and language of analysis should be. My view is that it should be a
big tent, all welcome, and the contributions of all available for
consideration on their own rather than doctrinaire merits. Which is why I
like this list, fragmentation and all. The area missing from this list,
and properly so, IMO, is that of engineering.
Lawrence de Bivort
The Memetics Group
On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Diana Stevenson wrote:
>Mark wrote:
>
><Can you describe the entity being transmitted? Can you then link the
>entity to natural selection?>
>
>Is memetics confined to natural selection? Is Coca Cola vs. Pepsi or Nike
>vs. Addidas about natural selection? Or is it about memetic engineering?
>
>Natural selection has been compromised since the invention of agriculture,
>and now we have genetic engineering also. Do do we have to stick to the
>natural selection model for memes?
>
>I can think of many memes which are widely copied by I'm not sure how they
>can be linked to natural selection. Whole national cultures have changed on
>the whim of the sovereign, for example.
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