From: Bryan Thompson (baronvonbryan@hotmail.com)
Date: Sun 09 Mar 2003 - 15:34:23 GMT
>I think what Bryan is contemplating is more correctly termed a cult
a cult, I wish ;). I wish I was that charismatic!
*Peace*
Bryan Thompson
Living Proof - Berkley paperback - March 2003
Government secrets/biological weapons/human subjects
http://www.peterjthompson.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Henson" <hkhenson@rogers.com>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: Memes For Peace
> At 09:53 PM 09/03/03 +1100, Bruce Howlett wrote:
>
> (Thoughtful posting, hope you don't mind my commenting on it.)
>
> >While I tend to agree with Joe on the humanitarian aspect of the Iraq
> >situation, there are other issues implicit in the wording of Bryan's post
> >which cause concern. The least not being the concept of "memetic
> >engineering", which I think is an oxymoron.
>
> So far, perhaps. But in analogy to the other two similar classes,
computer
> viruses and genetics, I think we will get memetic engineering just like we
> have genetic engineering and "designer" computer viruses. Both depend on
> understanding the environment of the replicators involved.
>
> >Even the opposing forces within the memetics definition debate agree that
> >a meme is a cultural unit.
>
> Heh, I wish.
>
> >Is not culture the conglomerate of inherited ideas, beliefs, values and
> >knowledge?
>
> I have said similar things in my articles on the subject. Values I might
> quibble about. It is true that we learn values to some extent, but I
think
> some are wired in and not learned.
>
> >Have not all attempts to overtly "engineer" culture failed?
>
> While I certainly agree that a lot of such attempts have failed or even
> backfired, your statement could be falsified by one example. As a counter
> example of overt cultural engineering, consider compulsory primary
> education. As a measure of it failing, list the places where it is
> required and where it is not, then compare the literacy rates for those
places.
>
> Another example might be the legal enforcement of racial discrimination in
> the US and the opposite post WW II.
>
> >I think what Bryan is contemplating is more correctly termed a cult - a
> >quasi-religious organisation using psychological techniques to gain and
> >control adherents.
>
> Might be, though I don't completely follow your thinking. Could you
expand
> on this point?
>
> >While memetics is seductive by its ability to provide insight into the
> >illogical and normally inexplicable aspects of human behaviour, it is not
> >a manipulative tool.
>
> Not exactly, though *any* model may be used to effectively manipulate. As
> an example, take the models people used to figure how far an artillery
> shell would go. These models had no effect on the shell after it left the
> barrel, but they provided knowledge used to point the gun which *did*
> effect where the shell landed.
>
> If you had good memetic models, you could feed memes into them and reject
> memes that don't accomplish what is desired. Ghod knows governments could
> use such models.
>
> >Even the advertising spin doctors can only hope that their carefully
> >crafted images and words may produce a memetic event.
>
> I see advertising and PR as analogous to animal and plant breeding before
> we had knowledge of what was really going on. Memetic related theory just
> hasn't been applied to advertising and PR yet.
>
> >The most useful tool for understanding current world situation is systems
> >theory relating to competition and cooperation. So who gains and who
> >loses? Why are the French and German leaders so opposed to the Americans
> >intervening? What about Korea? Do you really think that this is just
> >about "weapons-of-mass-destruction"? As usual it is about economics, but
> >that does not mean there are any simple answers.
>
> Good thinking tools to be sure, but I think you are missing human nature,
> i.e., that we are social primates with millions of years of evolution
> pointed to successful reproduction in small tribes. Among the things that
> drive people is far more than they appreciate is social status. And while
> status can be a non-zero sum game, it is more often treated as zero
> sum. If there is an area of study that will help understand human
> motivations it is evolutionary psychology.
>
> "The goal of research in evolutionary psychology is to discover and
> understand the design of the human mind. Evolutionary psychology is an
> approach to psychology, in which knowledge and principles from
evolutionary
> biology are put to use in research on the structure of the human mind. It
> is not an area of study, like vision, reasoning, or social behavior. It is
> a way of thinking about psychology that can be applied to any topic within
it.
>
> "In this view, the mind is a set of information-processing machines that
> were designed by natural selection to solve adaptive problems faced by our
> hunter-gatherer ancestors. This way of thinking about the brain, mind, and
> behavior is changing how scientists approach old topics, and opening up
new
> ones. This chapter is a primer on the concepts and arguments that animate
it."
>
> http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/primer.html
>
> >"Peace" is a convenient concept for those of us on the inside of a
> >comfortable western lifestyle that gives us a reasonable amount of free
> >choice, but even that depends on how wealthy you are.
>
> True. And standing up for various human rights is not a way to a peaceful
> life. (Put my name in Google to see why I can say this.)
>
> >Bryan, I think you deal mainly in the realm of paranoia. The give-away
is
> >the tag line in your signature block, "Government secrets/biological
> >weapons/human subjects". I don't think you will get much support from the
> >users of this list.
>
> snip
> >*Peace*
> >Bryan Thompson
> >Living Proof - Berkley paperback - March 2003
> >Government secrets/biological weapons/human subjects
> ><http://www.peterjthompson.net>http://www.peterjthompson.net
>
> I don't understand Bryan's relation to Peter (if any) but this is an ad
for
> a novel.
>
> Keith Henson
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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