Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA20206 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sat, 3 Jun 2000 19:38:45 +0100 Message-Id: <200006031836.OAA04765@mail2.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 13:40:42 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Really, really??? In-reply-to: <00060317203703.00520@faichney> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Robin Faichney <robin@faichney.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Reborn Technology
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Really, really???
Date sent: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 17:17:17 +0100
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> On Sat, 03 Jun 2000, Chuck wrote:
> >
> >I'm just (half) joking, of course, but Searle, in his effort to explain away
> >the computational theory of mind, says something to the effect that our
> >thoughts can't be encoded in 1s and 0s - that that would be assuming we are
> >in a coma. That was the nature of my comment/joke to Robin a few days ago.
>
> That reminds me Chuck: you never replied to my reply to that. I hope you
> don't mind if I repeat it: Do you think that to ignore something (in this
> case consciousness/freewill) is to assume that it does not exist?
>
> The implication being, of course, that it is perfectly valid for memetics
> to ignore consciousness and freewill, because that is *not* to imply that
> we don't believe in them.
>
But it is not memetically either valid or reasonable to ignore either
consciousness (self- or other-), or purpose or free will or choice. A
complete memetic cycle traverses both the L-meme (for Aaron
Lynch) phase, and the G-meme (for Derek Gatherer) phase. In the
L-meme, or internal, phase, the cognitive ideation of the meme
occurs (I call this the "within" memeform). In the G-meme, or
external phase, the behavioral manifestation of the meme occurs (I
call this the "between" memeform). Mutation of the meme occurs
internally, or WITHIN people, as the ideation one has either created
or received from another is compared and contrasted with
alternative possible constructions, and some alternatives are
selected/chosen over other candidates for retention and attempted
transmission/replication; thus mutation of the internal memeform
requires ideation and the freedom to consciously and purposefully
both construct and select/choose between alternative memeforms.
Replication, and natural selection of which mutations more
successfully replicate than others, occurs externally, or
BETWEEN people (notice that unlike in genetic selection, the
memetic selection - for or against - is not "natural" or
accomplished by blind environmental exigencies, but "purposeful"
and accomplished by an aware and freely choosing other), as the
behavioral instantiations of the transmitter-selected ideations are
presented to prospective receivers; thus selection for and
replication of the external memeform requires free purposeful
choice, which requires conscious self-awareness. Evolution
requires mutation (which occurs internally), replication (which
occurs externally), and selection (which occurs BOTH internally
AND externally). Memetics is like genetics (whyncha use
"genics", then, huh, Chuck? ;~) in requiring mutation, replication
and selection, but it is unlike genetics in requiring both the idea of
the received/created behavior and ideas of possible alternatives, the
purposive mutation and selection of some of these alternatives
rather than others, and the free will with which to both attempt
replication by manifesting one's chosen selections to others and to
select to replicate by accepting or rejecting the selected behavioral
manifestations of others' memes (I include communication -
showing, telling, writing, etc. as behavior).
> --
> Robin Faichney
>
>
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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