RE: Examples of the Radical Islamicist Memeplex

From: Scott Chase (ecphoric@hotmail.com)
Date: Sun 15 Dec 2002 - 22:37:41 GMT

  • Next message: joedees@bellsouth.net: "RE: Another Example of the Radical Islam Memeplex"

    >From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
    >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    >To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
    >Subject: RE: Examples of the Radical Islamicist Memeplex
    >Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:48:12 -0500
    >
    >Yes, of course, it is a fact. The question was soemthing like: what turned
    >the Arabs against the US? The answer is "Israel." But, as you say, that
    >doesn't mean that Israel isn't now a 'fact.'
    >
    >I don't think Turkey ever felt they had a dog in that fight, so didn't have
    >anything to 'get over.'
    >
    Yet they have an Islamic underpinning, even if secularized after Ataturk's reforms. Israel didn't seem to have much trouble getting along with Islamic though secularized Turkey and IIRC there was a point in time when relations between Israel and Iran weren't all that bad, at least before the Islamic revolution and Khomeini rose to power after the fall of the Shah.

    The Zionists of the Yishuv may have gotten along O.K. with Emir (and later King) Abdullah and King Husayn seemed to have an interesting relationship with Israel, even well before the 1994 treaty between Jordan and Israel. Two incidents of note are Husayn's apparent acquiescence to the possibility of Israeli air support as Syrian tanks were rolling into Jordan to support the Palestinian dissidents against his crackdown (ca. 1970) and his flying off to talk with Golda when Assad and Sadat were planning a surprise for Yom Kippur (ca. 1973). His boneheaded buddying up with Nasser previous to the Six Day war (ca. 1967) is retrospectively troublesome. Look how much he
    "gained" from that relationship (sarcasm, yes).

    Israel can get along with Muslims and/or Arabs. I suppose Turks and Iranians being non-Arab may have carried a little weight in Israel's better relations with Turkey and pre-revolution Iran. Not all Arabs seem to want to run Jews into the sea it seems. King Husayn stands as shining example of burying the hatchet, even if he was well...a King, thus making Jordanian claims to modern democracy tenuous at best. OTOH ibn Saud he wasn't.
    >
    >Cheers,
    >Lawry
    >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
    > > Of Scott Chase
    > > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 2:07 AM
    > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > > Subject: RE: Examples of the Radical Islamicist Memeplex
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > >From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
    > > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > > >To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
    > > >Subject: RE: Examples of the Radical Islamicist Memeplex
    > > >Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:10:53 -0500
    > > >
    > > >Greetings, Steve,
    > > >
    > > >I think the answer is fairly simple: what happened was Israel.
    > > >
    > > Israel happened. Get over it.
    > >
    > > I'm not saying this as cheerleader, because there were bad things that
    > > happened to resident Arabs during Israel's emergence, such as forcible
    > > displacements and the like and there's a bit of Zionist arrogance
    >towards
    > > resident Arabs that's retrospectively upsetting, but Israel's a
    > > fact of life
    > > and the sooner the Arab rejectionists get over it the better.
    > >
    > > Turkey got over it didn't they? Sadat and King Husayn got over it didn't
    > > they? Why can't the rest follow suit?
    > > >
    > > > > When did the Muslim world change from one which sheltered the Jews
    >in
    > > >the
    > > > > Middle East, in North Africa and in Spain till the late middle
    > > > > ages from the
    > > > > christians, to one where they are the personification of anti
    > > Muslim and
    > > > > evil? Assuming the Qu'ran has not changed too much why are jews
    > > >acceptable
    > > > > 400 years ago and not now? These are questions that need looking at.
    > > > >
    > > > > Why did an advanced tolerant society skilled in science, medicine
    >etc
    > > > > whilst we in the west struggled under the yoke of an ignorant
    >church,
    > > >lose
    > > > > such an advantage?
    > > > >
    > > > > Regards
    > > > >
    > > > > Steve
    > >
    >
    >
    >
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