RE: Another Example of the Radical Islam Memeplex

From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Sat 14 Dec 2002 - 19:36:57 GMT

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    > I do not consider memri a reliable source. Their material is
    > overwhelmingly pro-Israeli, and their source of financing hidden.
    >
    I'm one of their hidden funding sources; I contributed $20 to their pledge drive, as I consider their work, which is letting the non-arabic- speaking world know what is being said about them in Arabic to be inportant to remaining informed about actual, as opposed to manufactured, opinions.
    >
    > IN fairness, some of my friends view their translations as adequately
    > accurate, but that their selection of what they translate and post is
    > biased.
    >
    They present the negative AND the positive; they have been extensively covering the popular revolt in Iran against conservative clerical rule, and columnists in Saudi Arabia calling for the end of hate- indoctrination in that nation's schools.
    >
    http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=iran&ID=IA 10502 http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=iran&ID=IA 11102 http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=iran&ID=S P44502 http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD44802
    >
    > If indeed the materials that Joe posted are from authentic sources, I
    > would -- as always -- like to see the primary source reference.
    >
    The transcripts were accompanied by streaming videos of the actual broadcasts, complete with the original soundtrack and closed-caption translations. You can't get more checkable than that.
    >
    > There is a huge amount of disinformation being posted to the Web re.
    > the Middle East. Web standards of authenticity are poor, largely, I
    > think, due to the fact that the Web is so populist, and much of the
    > Web public is gullible. There are specialized lists in which this is
    > not the case. Our list here is pretty good on memetics, but our
    > discussions on the Middle East, and our use of sources, is pretty
    > weak, though better than many!
    >
    > So, back to the original question: what are the primary sources?
    >
    They were broadcast on middle east television, and the broadcasts are reproduced on the MEMRI site for all to see and hear.
    >
    > Joe -- do you remember a bunch of sound-bite quotes you put up here
    > about the Palestinians evacuating their lands in 47-48? I think you
    > got back to your 'pro-Israeli' site to try and find the source, and
    > that you got back a reference to yet another derivative site, but no
    > primary source.
    >
    The source was an Egyptian journalist, who, I'm quite sure, has more knowledge of the area's history, and more access to original news accounts of the time, than you ever will. Not everything is on the web.
    >
    > It is easy, on the Web, so stuff to be invented and then circulated
    > enough that it takes on patina if not veracity. That is why primary
    > sources are essential. You will note that when Jeremy, I, and others
    > were discussing, for example, the WWI liberation of Damascus, we all
    > used primary sources. I think that if you really want to argue your
    > anti-Islamic case, you will have to do the same. But you rely
    > endlessly and naively on such as Daniel Pipes, "ibn Warraq", the
    > Hoover Institute, MEMRI, etc. Could you not simply discipline
    > yourself to use primary sources? They do exist in profusion.
    > Journalists publish in specific newspapers, which have specific dates.
    > Academics publish in Journals and books, with dates, publishers and
    > titles. Experts give talks at conferences that publish proceedings, on
    > certain dates and places.
    >
    Actually, the sources I use, such as FOREIGN AFFAIRS, POLICY REVIEW, FOREIGN POLICY, THE WILSON QUARTERLY, THE MIDDLE EAST FORUM, MEMRI, THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY, THE NEW YORKER, HARPERS, etc. are among the most respected (by the unagendaed and unbiased) in the field.
    >
    > You do a lot of cutting and pasting, but severely weaken your case by
    > depending on derivative, inexpert, or biased sources, or, indeed,
    > pasting things without any references at all.
    >
    Actually, I've seen a shovel-load more referencing from myself than I've ever seen from you - so much, that people have actually complained about it here.
    >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
    > > Behalf Of joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002
    > > 11:19 PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Another Example of the
    > > Radical Islam Memeplex
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > > On Friday, December 13, 2002, at 10:29 PM, Lawrence DeBivort
    > > > wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Well, Joe, are you going to provide us with a reference on this?
    > > > > Or do you expect us to take your word for its authenticity?
    > > >
    > > > I find it below. Can't answer for veracity.
    > > >
    > > > - Wade
    > > >
    > > You can find them all by accessing this page and clicking on "read
    > > transcript".
    > >
    > > http://memri.org/video/
    > >
    > >
    > > > http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/
    > > > 355b qppp. asp
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > ===============================================================
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    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > =============================================================== This
    > > was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of
    > > Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For
    > > information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see:
    > > http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    >

    =============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit

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