From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Mon 09 Dec 2002 - 00:21:35 GMT
>
> > > I forsee there a great deal of
> > > > trouble arising in your midst, if the US government won 't deal
> > > > with that a kind of situation. Or is that one/ the reason why
> > > > the US intervenes so happily abroad, to elude its people from
> > > > what is really happening internal !? After all, a good president
> > > > is often seen as one who has a strong foreign policy.... strange
> > > > !!
> > >
> > The US has a responsibility and obligation, as the world's one
> > remaining superpower, to assist in stabilizing the global situation.
> > This position is urged upon the US by the selfsame people who
> > complain about it, and it is acknowledged by most US citizens as a
> > necessity
> < thrust upon it by its pre- eminent position in the world.
>
> Joe,
> Out of the all the good arguments / comments and answers from you, for
> the sake of the list, I distilled two, IMO, hard evidence why we in
> Europe are so contrary ! The above is the first in our memetic war...
>
> IMO, this is a complete mis- conception on your part, you make it
> sound like it is the US is own natural virtue to stabilize the worlds
> situation. Virtue is a value which someone has made his own, and only
> in the virtue the value gets its meaning. From this on the US/ its
> foreign policy ( and that is of what we are upset about, we ain 't got
> trouble with the American people as such) sets its own demands and its
> very own expactations on a very high level indeed. This is a ' belief
> ' ! This can in a sense come together in two things, 1- there is no
> longer a normalizition and freedom gets in and 2- but, it can also
> lead to an extreme case of political corectness in thought and
> behavior. And IMO, the latter is the thing where the US swings by...
>
I should hope that freedom, equality, basic human rights and
representative government are 'politically correct'; I see politics, in its
purest and most idealistic form, as the effort to maximize these ideals,
in the real world, for all citizens. Politics is not perfect, or even in
principle perfectible (since available choices, and therefore the
definition of freedom, constantly expand), but I see these goals as ones
that responsible governments should always keep in mind when
formulating policy.
>
> And that ain 't something real, like you said, it is an idea.
> It is the idea ' of being American ' that plays tricks on you, ( or
> like the chauvinistic thing plays tricks with the French, or like the
> über- mensch - thing plays tricks with the German), you are being
> yourself and you express this in many ways, but in the same way, you
> get very easily upset, you are very sensible. Your feeling of self-
> esteem is huge, that is an American trait, proposed as like in the
> declariation of the Union. There is nothing wrong with such a feeling
> though, as long that selfrespect don 't grow into unassailbleness. If
> it does, like it did IMO, than you get in trouble if something like '
> dependents ' comes along.
>
It is forever assailed by the perpetual imperfection of reality, and its
eternal failure to achive the ideals, but those very ideals, and the
benefitsof even imperfectly realizing them, inspire further strivings, even
in the face of that perpetual imperfection, to asymptotically approach,
as closely as possible, an ideal that can never in reality be completely
achieved.
>
> The thing to mention is that not only disasters can break the picture
> you have of yourself but far most you depend on what ' the others '
> have to say or do ! I don 't reproach you anything, it is just an
> ascertainty, but it just in the ways you try to express yourself, or
> in the ways the US tries to proove to itself its own high amount of
> self- esteem that we see things where we get upset about. That image
> you drag along of unassailbleness creates for us a certain amount of
> tention, by which the sensibility of the other his/ her behavior
> increases_ and that works both ways !
>
Yes, the Europeans, who owe much to us in the realm of ideas (as we
undeniably owe much to them, and we all owe much to the Greeks),
tend to look down their nose at the 'colonies' as if we were uncouth, ill-
bred and ignorant barbarians.
>
> The US, in a sense makes itself ' beautiful ', its own obligation, its
> ne- cessity to stabilize, to indulge democracy, freedom and human
> rights upon others, makes it beautiful, it makes you shine ! But you
> use, " beauty " as a power, as a force in the real sense of the word.
> Not all what is ' Beautiful ", what is ' Clean ' and ' Upright ' is
> true, it only " Blinds "_ and that is what the US does, it dazzles,
> not us, but itself !
>
One cannot lose sight of the real in pursuit of the ideal, because it is the
difference between the real and the ideal that is the object of one's
strivings - to shrink it as much as is practically possible.
>
> IMO, the position that is urged upon the US is only done partly by the
> people who complain about it, you are always the half a whole and in
> this case, you have to think about the thrusted part of your so-
> called pre- eminent position in the world. It is not that the US is
> the last remaining superpower that automatically you have to take the
> world upon your shoulders. Ferrari is maybe everybody's dreamcar, but
> that doesn 't mean the brand has to drag to automobilebusiness out of
> its misery.
>
But freedom and equality and representative democracy and basic
human rights are not mere brands, opposed by other equally feasible
brands. Slavery and inequality and totalitarianism and rightless
serfhood compete very poorly in the marketplace of ideas whenever the
showroom is equally open to their alternatives.
>
> The US is biting more off that it can chew, you're taking on res-
> ponsibilities you can 't handle, that ain 't something you easily can
> dismiss, it is what you ARE, and you have to understand that others
> are not willing, by choosing or otherwise, can 't cope with that kind
> of fact, likewise you have to understand that people are willing to
> fight what, from there perspective, is their own in their own
> legitimate right.
>
Well, actually, the US is grateful for any help that it is offered in such
globally beneficial endeavors, and incessantly requests it, through the
UN, NATO, the WTO, bilateral negotiations, and many other political
and diplomatic means. When these things desperately need to be done
for the good of all the world's peoples, it is not fair to not help the US do
them and then criticize that it is too much for them to do on their own.
>
> This a memetic war, and unless the US is willing to acknowledge that
> others have opposite ideas as to their own and are willing to fight to
> defend those, I fear for your safety. What the Muslim world fears most
> is enlarged in what the US stands for, and that is one reason they
> attack you, and not, not yet anyway, I do understand this,
> us...Europe. It is not a clear case who is actually " contrary ", it
> is a case of who is willing to set its own memes aside_ Europe is not,
> yet hooked on the terrorism- meme, and I hope this stays that way. Out
> of a sense of isolation, like Lawry mentioned earlier, out of that
> sense of unassailableness you have to come up, for yourself, with the
> ' why ' of all of this. The American, memetic model has indeed
> problems.
>
Oh, Europe's time will come. Sooner or later the alligator you cynically
feed will swivel its hungry jaws in your direction. We are both Dar-el-
Harb, the world of war, and until we are assimilated into the Dar-el-
Islam, the Islamofascist Ummah will grant us no peace. Now that the
US has made itself a harder target, the fanatical fundamentalist zealots
who memebotically attack all that has not been assimilated under their
religious dogma's totalitarian thrall will find you to be easier meat to
feed upon, and will turn their feasting eyes upon you soon enough.
Europe's common cause, and common preservation, is with the US, and
it would behoove both Europe and the US to cooperate in freedom's
defence.
>
> The US is not pragmatic about itself, where IMO it is for others. It
> is willing to set things straight where freedom and democracy fails,
> but the US is not willing to let go of philosophical arguments like "
> truth " even those can 't proove themselves out there in reality. (
> James)
>
It is a dogma of One Truth, that cannot tolerate even the existence of
others, that attacks us; the US has a government in which is enshrined
a principle that is anathema to its assailants; the separation of Church
and State.
>
> Many regards,
>
> Kenneth
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
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>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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