From: Grant Callaghan (grantc4@hotmail.com)
Date: Sun 24 Nov 2002 - 16:47:49 GMT
Lawry,
You're idea of right and wrong comes from your culture and their ideas of
right and wrong comes from their culture. Therefore, all of you can be
right at the same time in the light of your culture even though you are in
opposition in the clash of cultures. Since right and wrong are human
constructs, there is no absolute right and wrong, to my mind, except the
concept that the means you use will shape the ends you get. Bad means will
beget bad ends. If you think bad ends are wrong, then you get wronged. If
you think bad ends are acceptable in exchange for something you don't want
to live with, then you may see it as right. Either way, what you get is
going to be bad.
You may think that is simplistic, but so is E=mc^2.
Grant
>
>Hi, everyone,
>For the record, I am not the author of the quotes attributed to me,
>below...
>
>I did earlier ask Joe how Dar Yassin, specifically, fit into his cheery
>view
>that the Palestinians just left voluntarily, but I don't think he ever
>assayed an answer.
>There is also the affiliated matter of fake broadcasts made to the
>Palestinians by the Ben Gurion leadership.
>
>I am primarily interested in 'terror' as a strategy. Is it ever a
>legitimate
>strategy? Which ever way one answers the question, is one ready to apply
>the
>answer uniformly to all parties?
>
>For example, I have before me a book by Doris Katz, THE LADY WAS A
>TERRORIST, During Israel's War of Liberation. New York: Shiloni Publishers,
>1953, in which she recounts her exploits and those of others in the Irgun.
>I read the book and a real person comes to life, not entirely unattractive
>one. Compare it to Leila Khaled's book, where another real person comes to
>life, also not entirely unattractive. Both terrorists, one for Israel, one
>for Palestine. Were they both right to do what they did? Were they both
>wrong?
>
>One of the problems with the Israeli-Palestinian debate is the lack of
>intellectual integrity that permeates it, and I mean the term 'integrity'
>technically, rather than moralistically. One-sided explanations often set
>up an odd internal contradiction: behaviors of others are condemned
>vociferously, though they are behaviors undertaken by the very party
>offering the explanation.
>
>The reality is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians have used and
>use
>today the methods of terror. Both assert that they aren't terrorists: only
>the other party is. Both assert that they are merely retaliating for the
>depredations of the other. Both assert that their existence is at stake,
>and
>that that is why they are driven to these measures. They are both, at the
>same time, both wrong and right, locked in a tight embrace of death. They
>both have sizable portions of their populations who reject the embrace and
>the use of terror by both, and they both have even larger portions of their
>populations who believe that they are driven to it, that they have no
>choice.
>
>Cheers,
>Lawry
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Jeremy Bradley
> > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:06 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Islam and Europe and the Palestinians and the Left and the
> > anti-American Lawry
> >
> >
> > At 06:56 PM 23/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Lawry wrote:
> > >What about LEHI and Irgun and the events at places such as Deir Yassin?
> > Jeremy:
> > There was the Stern Group as well.
> > Lawry:
> > >I haven't been able to delve into Benny Morris's historic
> > treatment of the
> > >nakba of 48 yet, but have read that things are not quite as
> > dandy as the Der
> > >Judenstaat creation myths make them out to be. There was an Arab
> > majority in
> > >the Palestinian portion of the Ottoman empire previous to the aliyahs.
> > >Organized Zionism resulted in an influx of diaspora Jews. Still the
> > >proportions as I recall favored the Arabs. Then during Israel's War of
> > >Independence (aka the Palestinian nakba) there was a displacment of
> > >Palestinian Arabs from Israel proper. This was best for the fledgling
> > >Israeli state if they were to be democratic, since demography
> > favoring Arabs
> > >would not be in their interests at the voting booth.
> > >
> > Jeremy:
> > As I have said before, Israel was born through terrorism, and it was
> > sponsored by USAnian Zionists - with the knowledge of all, including the
> > Administration.
> > "The Jews of America (sic) are with you. You are their champion. You are
> > the grin they wear. You are the feather in their hats...Every
> > time you blow
> > up a British arsenal, or wreck a British jail, or send a British train
> > sky-high, or rob a British bank, or let go with your guns and bombs at
>the
> > British betrayers and invaders of your homeland, the Jews of America
>(sic)
> > make a little holiday in their hearts." (Ben Hecht, New York
> > Herald Tribune
> > 5/15/47. In 'The Palestinians' Jonathan Dimbleby, Quartet Books, London,
> > 1979, p.83)
> > "I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands of
> > those who are anxious for the success of Zionism; I do not have
> > hundreds of
> > thousands of Arabs in my constituents." (FDR addressing Arab
> > leaders at the
> > White House. In 'FDR meets Ibin Saud', New York, 1954, p.37)
> > Virtually all of Israel's first Cabinet was wanted for crimes of terror
> > against the British, including Ze'evi whose assassination lead to the
> > current round of 'eye-for-an-eye' killings. Doubtless Osama will be a
> > legitimate target for the rest of his days, but that's different.
> > There are two sides Joe, and therefore two perspectives.
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
>
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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