From: Lawrence DeBivort (debivort@umd5.umd.edu)
Date: Sat 23 Nov 2002 - 22:54:42 GMT
Joe, do you really think that wandering around accusing everybody of being
'Jew-hating' innoculates you against the charge of anti-Semitism? Guess
again...
Re. your "quotes" -- when you provide the original sources and full context,
we will begin to take your factoid level of research more seriously. Try
again.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of joedees@bellsouth.net
> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 4:49 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Islam and Europe and the Palestinians and the Left and the
> anti-American Lawry
>
>
> > Joe is at it again...now focusing his diatribe on the Palestinians.
> > The Palestinians, you see, in Joe's world, abandoned their homes
> > voluntarily. They were really happy, Joe will tell us, to give their
> > lands and homes and political existence to the Israelis. There was of
> > course no such thing as the Dar Yassin massacres, in Joe's particular
> > worldview. There was no such thing as the refusal to allow the
> > Palestinians to return to their country or homes. In later emails,
> > Joe will also probably tell us that the Palestinians who did manage to
> > remain in the territories taken by Israel live as full citizens of
> > Israel, and not as second-class citizens, whose homes are subject to
> > unilateral forfeiture whenever Israel wants them. Really, when you get
> > right down to it in Joe's worldview, the Palestinians have no reason
> > at all to be waging a war against Israel. They are, Joe will tell us,
> > just plain old anti-Jewish and tools of the world-wide cannibalistic
> > memetic Muslim something or other...
> >
> Did you read the quotes I posted? If not, I will post them again
> for you.
> See if you can pass them through your Jew-hating memetic filters this
> time.
>
> "The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of
> the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish
> state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and
> they must share in the solution of the problem."
> “ Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher
> Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6,
> 1948.
>
> "The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to
> leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the
> Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help
> these refugees."
> “ The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.
>
> "Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering
> now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal
> leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought
> them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor?
> The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it."
> “ The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.
>
> "The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of
> Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country,
> because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their
> stead."
> “ The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.
>
> "For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who
> are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors
> exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in
> order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish
> atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear
> and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled
> leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."
> “ The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.
>
> Actually, the Palestinians who stayed in Israel proper have been
> granted Israeli citizenship, and are allowed to vote in Israeli
> elections. The 700,000 Jewish refugees displaced by the
> surrounding Muslim countries were accepted into Israel, but the
> surrounding Muslim countries refused to settle the Palestinian
> Muslims within their borders. The two countries which have
> killed the most palestinians remain Jordan and Syria; Jordan
> killed 20,000 of them in one slaughter, more than Israel has killed
> in its entire existence. Where's your condemnation of THAT
> atrocity?
>
> I would dearly love to see a two-state solution with Israel and
> Palestine living side-by-side in peace and harmony, and sharing as
> their common capitol the internationalized city of Jerusalem.
> However, the Palestinian that negotiates such a settlement will be
> assassinated by elements of Hamas, Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad,
> Tanzim, the Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade or some other indigenous
> Radical Muslim terror organization, much as Israel's Yitzhak
> Rabin, who was trying to do the same, was killed by a Jewish
> Zionist extremist.
> >
> > Now Joe will run off to his true-blue websites (the more anonymous or
> > bigoted or self-serving the better!) and conjure up another round of
> > bit extractions from reality, with which Joe populates his worldview.
> >
> The websites I have pulled from include the New Yorker, the Atlantic
> Monthly, Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, Policy Review, MEMRI, etc.
> They are neither anonymous nor bigoted nor self-serving. And where
> does Lawry get documentation to support his vicious assertions against
> me and afainst anyone who would dispute his narrow-minded and
> propagandistic view? Of, that's right, he doesn't bother with
> such things
> at all, does he?
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
> > > Behalf Of joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002
> > > 4:06 PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Islam and Europe and Joe
> > >
> > >
> > > > At 12:40 PM 23/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
> > > > >> At 12:37 PM 22/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Hi, Scott,
> > > > >> >By 'anti-Semitic' I mean bigoted against any or all Semitic
> > > > >> >races, including Arabs. Islam, being a religion, would not be
> > > > >> >included, though of course many Muslims are Arabs and vice
> > > > >> >versa. My experience of bigots is that their bigotry can swing
> > > > >> >around at anytime to attack anyone who is 'different,' so it
> > > > >> >should not bring much comfort to Jews - or anyone else - that
> > > > >> >Joe has so far focused his anti-Semitism on Arabs and Muslims.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think that we need to separate Zionism, (an aggressive
> > > > >> political position which supports the creation of the Greater
> > > > >> Israeli State, genocide and ethnic cleansing), Judaism (the
> > > > >> religion) and Jews (the Jewish people). The area of land
> > > > >> claimed by Zion is that which was 'given' to Abraham and his
> > > > >> descendants by his God in a 'vision'. I've always thought that
> > > > >> it was fairly suspect land deal (no witnesses). See Gen. 15:
> > > > >> 18-21. Personally I don't mind Judaism or Jews but I think that
> > > > >> the US backed Zionist movement is the most dangerous political
> > > > >> force in the World today. <snip>
> > > > >>
> > > > >I must disagree with you, and so must most of the non-Muslim
> > > > >world. The most dangerous political force in the world today,
> > > > >wreaking havoc
> > > > > and terror across the globe from Bali to Kashmir to Jerusalem to
> > > > > New York, is undoubtedly the memeset of Radical Islam.
> > > > >>
> > > > Joe as I read it, even Osama was reacting against US/Israeli
> > > > persecution and expansionism.
> > > >
> > > Actually, what originally pissed him off was the Saudi family
> > > blowing off his offer for his four thousand (at the time) mujaheddin
> > > to defend Saudi Arabia in a jihad against Iraq before the start of
> > > the Gulf War twelve years ago, and instead bringing in the
> > > disgusting, hated, despised, Godless infidel unbeliever US to defend
> > > the holy Mecca and Medina, and sully the sacred soil of the Muslim
> > > Holy Sand. He used his other two points - the Palestinian situation
> > > and a later inverted sympathy for the very Iraq he offered to fight
> > > - as ways to sway gullible jihadist wannabees into making the
> > > commitment to join his terror army.
> > > >
> > > >I have not read anywhere that he was
> > > > attempting to convert the world to Islam - as you keep saying. The
> > > > requests from most of the Muslim world are as stated by Al Baz in
> > > > the piece that I sent you. If those four conditions were met the
> > > > Islamofasists, as you name them rightly, would have no more
> > > > support base than the KKK has in Christendom. The problem is the
> > > > aggressive Zionist expansionism.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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