RE: Why Europe is so Contrary

From: Lawrence DeBivort (debivort@umd5.umd.edu)
Date: Mon 18 Nov 2002 - 19:56:36 GMT

  • Next message: Van oost Kenneth: "Re: Why Europe"

    Hi, Grant,

    I think that US hands are not as clean on this matter of support for the IRA. Officially, we eventually became involved in true mediation (Mitchell), but for a long time before that, government authorities closed their eyes to active fund-raising and arms smuggling in the US in support of the IRA. My understanding is that this was based in Boston (Kennedy and O'Neill come immediately to mind), with local efforts in all major cities with sizeable Irish immigration descendants. Irish bars in these cities had (and may still have) jars out collecting money for the IRA.

    I do agree that this is not a plot by the US government against that of the UK; it is just something that we allow to happen for reasons of domestic politics. We close our eyes, similarly, to the activities of the Cuban community in Florida, the Chinese community re. Taiwan-related issues, American Jewish activities re. Israel (including smuggling of weapons, classified information, and 'special materials'), industrial espionage by a variety of ethnic communities e.g. Japanese, Russian, etc. That we allow this to happen frustrates many governments, including some that we profess friendship with. I do not see this as venal, but an almost inevitable consequence of the complexity of the world. This complexity produces many objectives, each legitimate but some of which are at variance with each other.

    I very much liked your other email on the competition between memes that advocate open society and evolution, and those that seek to stabilize or preserve the status quo. I'll reflect a bit on it, as there is much in it to ponder.

    Cheers, Lawry

    -----Original Message----- From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Grant Callaghan Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 12:09 PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Why Europe is so Contrary

    > Attacking Iraq on the back of 9/11 is a bit like the UK attacking
    >the US on the back of the Omagh bombing, although that would have more
    >legitimacy given the very overt fundraising for the IRA that has gone on in
    >the US for decades. Of course one big difference is that one of these
    >situations involves attacking a nation with weapons of mass destruction
    >that
    >it has used against multiple nations in the past- guess which one I mean.
    >
    > Vincent
    >

    I often see people on the UKan side of the pond refer to the fact that a large number of people fled Ireland to come to the U.S. a couple of generations ago and their descendants now number among their population people who support the IRA. Ever since the early days of the immigration from Ireland we've had those who wear the 'green' as opposed to those who wear the 'orange' or another color on St. Patrick's day. The IRA supporters here in the U.S. are individuals responding to a history of trouble between England and Ireland. It is NOT a plot by the American government against Great Britain. To imply that it is and to equate personal feelings with national policy is disengenuous to say the least. We have just as many or more people in the U.S. who deplore the terrorism of the IRA as we have people who support them and feel that they serve a righteous cause. The government has not only tried to mediate between the two sides, from Presidents of the U.S. to a Senate Majority Leader named Mitchell, but we have jailed and sent back to England IRA members who came here seeking funds from supporters in this country or who fled jail in the U.K.

    As a man who is deploring sweeping generalizations, you seem to be falling into your own trap. Is that YOUR petard I see you dangling from?

    Cheers,

    Grant

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