From: Lawrence DeBivort (debivort@umd5.umd.edu)
Date: Sat 16 Nov 2002 - 23:42:06 GMT
Grant, I must challenge you again, I'm afraid. You said "He feels anything
done to the
infidel is justified, and says as much in words and deeds." Let's leave
aside the deeds as they are subject to interpretation, as our earlier
discussion demonstrated. So: to the words: What words has bin Laden said
that state that 'he feels anything {sic] done to the infidel is justified.'
I have been reading quite a bit of bin Laden material, and haven't seen
anything like this at all. It would be especially helpful if you could give
actual examples (one would do!) of these words, rather than arguing by
inference.
Cheers,
Lawry
-----Original Message-----
From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Grant Callaghan
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:59 AM
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: The terrorism meme
>
>At 07:02 AM 15/11/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >Jeremy,
> >
> >If the people of Iraq were fighting for freedom using terrorist tactics,
>I
> >could buy that. Even the Palestinians have a fair claim to being held
> >captive. But how can anyone compare a worldwide terrorist organization
>to a
> >people held captive and fighting for their freedom? Freedom from whom?
>
>As has been said before, and what makes this a valid list discussion, is
>that this is a clash of meme-teams. The perception of AlQ, and their
>supporters, is that Western cultural imperialism is enslaving their world.
>It is the imposed values, compulsory memes which ride on this domination,
>which are unacceptable.
>
> >These terrorists are fighting to enslave the rest of the world under
>their
> >concept of the will of God. They are the ones people need to be set free
> >from. We all need to be set free from mindless terror carried out for no
> >rational purpose other than to scare the hell out of people.
> >
> >Grant
> >
>
>IMHO both sides are fighting to free the world from evil. It is just that
>their memetic constructs are at varience.
>I love you Grant, but I can't agree that mindfull and rational terror is
>any better than the mindless and irrational sort. After all these
>subjective adjectives, like good and evil, are only relevant within
>meme-team.
>Jeremy
>
I never said one type of terror was better than the other. Both are
irrational to my mind. But I can't see people belonging to a worldwide
organization who travel freely to carry out terrorist acts against civilians
of all nations as "freedom fighters." In every case where they have made
attacks on embassies in foreign countries, they killed more civilians of
that country than they did Americans. In other words, they don't care how
many collateral deaths they cause in a country if they can kill one
American. They are only "freedom fighters" in their own minds, not in the
minds of the rest of the world. The fact that bin Laden praises such acts
shows that it is a clash of cultures and what he is out to destroy is all
non-Muslim governments and unbelievers. He feels anything done to the
infidel is justified, and says as much in words and deeds.
Grant
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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