From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Mon 11 Nov 2002 - 23:07:46 GMT
> Joe,
> > The transition to freedom is not a sudden one, which is why the US
> > will have to engage in a protracted Marshall-Plan-type engagement
> > with the region. However, we should not treat these people as if
> > they are somehow genetically trapped in a cognitive childhood which
> > cannot learn to responsibly deal with democracy. Russia is
> > learning, too; it takes time, but it's worth it. At least Europe
> > seems to think so; it's
> your
> > form of government, too.
>
> Ah, now you are talking sense to me !
> It is not Iraq itself but the whole region that the US has to provide
> with democratic principles, yes indeed ! Otherwise by removing Saddam
> the whole of the region will collapse once more in chaos if post-
> Saddam Iraq becomes a stable state. One's stability can jeapardize
> one's other.
>
Iran is not far from shrugging off the Mullahcracy and restoring an
effective democracy to that land.
>
> Kenneth,
> > .You cling onto democracy and you gonna bomb Iraq to proove your
> > point, is
> that
> > > it !?
> Joe,
> > I'm getting tired of this scurrilous canard. The US military plans
> > are specifically designed to concentrate on the Saddamic regime and
> > avoid the citizenry, whom we are trying to help. The US argument is
> > not with the people of Iraq; it is with Saddam Hussein. Our
> > proposed action would be to the great liberating benefit of the vast
> > majority of the oppressed Iraqi people. I'd like to put you
> in
> > a room with about a dozen Iraqis with baseball bats and let you try
> > to explain to them that you believe that the US should not remove
> > Saddam from power because you do not believe that they could learn
> > to handle democracy.
>
> No Joe, it is not ridiculous at all, in matter of fact I am dead
> serious about our democratic principles ! Like we are condionated in
> democracy they are indoctrinated with fear of being killed !
>
We are conditioned to embrace free choice? Sounds like a pretty good
deal to me, like being programmed to transcend programming.
>
>Those
> twelve Iraqis would first control the room that it wasn 't bugged,
> than probably smash my head in yes, but the explaining will take a
> hack of a time ! And saying to them that Saddam will be removed would
> make them laugh, secretly....
>
Because it would be a death sentence to do so openly. People are
certainly free to criticize Dubya Shrub here -- they most definitely do it a
lot.
>
> Kenneth,
> > >And yes, the Russian people embraced Stalin, and far more people
> > > than you realise are still doing it ! The Iraqi people and the
> > > Russians are in so a manner conditioned that they have not a
> > > single reaction left ! You have to re- learn, re-educate them the/
> > > in basics of cultural/ social intercourse, something that
> > > completely is diseappered. Imposing the democratic highlights upon
> > > them after Saddam has been removed from power is perversive, you
> > > ain 't gonna give them any chance to develop their new born
> > > freedom/ culture on their own !
> > >
> > That's why it will take time; but it's time the US is willing to
> > spend.
>
> I sincerely hope so, Joe ! Only the future will tell !
>
Yep.
>
> Kenneth,
> > > And the same mechanism rules us, we got to impose democratic
> > > ruling upon those who lack it, that is in our blood ! But who says
> > > that is the right thing to do !?
> Joe,
> > You, actually think that fascist, communist or theocratic
> > totalitarianism
> is
> > better? For ANYONE? Puh-LEEEZE!
>
> No Joe, that is not what I meant !
> I mean to say that people within such ideologies know no better !
>
Sure they do. Many have known better; Andrei Sakharov, Vaclav
Havel, Lech Walesa immediately come to mind.
>
> The
> case gets worse when such political systems are due to democratic
> elections, like in pre- war Germany, but in a manner you got to
> respect the wishes of the people, no matter what !( Look what is
> happening right now in Italy....)
>
Sadly, it is much easier to give away one's freedom than to reclaim it.
>
> For certain individuals, for some
> groups those systems were the best they ever will get, that other
> groups were to be left out of the picture can be seen as a result of
> darwinistic evolution, no !? So, Joe, what counts for nature, can you
> let it be counted for people !?
>
I do indeed think that the evolution of governmental forms has brought
us to participatory democracy (not, as Marx supposed, to communism);
it's just that some countries haven't made it there - yet - but
progressively more are joining the community of democratic nations.
The book that makes the best case for this evolution is THE END OF
HISTORY AND THE LAST MAN by Francis Fukuyama; I highly
recommend both it and THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS by Samuel P.
Huntington.
>
> Kenneth
>
>
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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