From: Scott Chase (ecphoric@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon 11 Nov 2002 - 16:49:24 GMT
>From: joedees@bellsouth.net
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk, fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Essays from Free Inquiry magazine (#2)
>Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:03:01 -0600
>
> > >From: joedees@bellsouth.net
> > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > >Subject: Essays from Free Inquiry magazine (#2)
> > >Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:54:41 -0600
> > >
> > >The Islamic Concept of Peace: Can the West Accept it?
> > >By Abdul Maseeh
> > >
> > >After much research and reflection, I have come to understand
> > >the Islamic concept of peace as something like this: Peace comes
> > >through submission, which is the meaning of the word Islam. This
> > >submission, of course, is submission to Muhammed and his concept of
> > >Allah in the Qu'ran, in other words, Islam once again. Theoretically
> > >peace exists inside Dar-al-Islam, the House of Submission. I say
> > >"theoretically" because we all know that Muslims, even though they
> > >are not supposed to, do fight fellow Muslims. Consider the Afghan
> > >civil war between the Pashtuns on one side and the then-Northern
> > >Alliance (Uzbeks, Tajiks, etc.) on the other; Iraq's attack on Kuwait
> > >and its earlier war with Iran; or the West Pakistani attack on East
> > >Pakistan, which subsequently became Bangladesh. Peace with pagans,
> > >that is, people not "of the Book", is impossible; they are all to be
> > >given a chance to accept Islam or be killed. This is illustrated by
> > >the killing of pagans in the south of Sudan, the north of Nigeria,
> > >and the south of Chad, in each case by Muslims eager to impose
> > >Islamic law. With regard to Christians and Jews, they too are to be
> > >fought against until they are subdued and feel themselves subdued -
> > >that is found in Qu'ran sura 9, verse 29 ("Fight those who believe
> > >not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been
> > >forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of
> > >Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya
> > >with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"). Examples of
> > >this are also found in Sudan, Nigeria and Chad, and also in Indonesia
> > >- along with smaller atrocities against Christians in Egypt and the
> > >heinous repression of all Christian activity in Saudi Arabia by the
> > >Wahhabis. To say that Islam is a religion of peace is not true. Islam
> > >is committed to war, both by the example of Muhammed, who fought on
> > >until he subdued Mecca and then other tribes, and by the Qu'ran's
> > >teaching supported by numerous passages in the Hadith. According to
> > >Amir Tahiri, aditor of Politique International in Paris, of the
> > >thirty wars going on as of October 2001, twenty-eight involve Muslims
> > >fighting either non-Muslims or even other Muslims! The Qu'ran does
> > >teach that Muslims are never to initiate war. But Islam has a strange
> > >way of putting this into practice. For example, Muslims are supposed
> > >to offer non-Muslims an opportunity to embrace Islam. If the non-
> > >Muslims, refuse, this is viewed as aggression against Allah and
> > >Islam. Therefore Muslims are allowed to fight these "aggressors"
> > >until they are converted or killed. Perhaps the greatest proof that
> > >Islam is not a religion of peace is sura 4, verse 89, which proclaims
> > >that any who want to leave Islam (turn renegade) shall be put to
> > >death: "But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever
> > >ye find them." This makes Islam the religion of fear, not of peace.
> > >There will be war in the world so long as people believe in Muhammed,
> > >his example, and his teaching. The Islamic concept of peace, meaning
> > >making the whole world Muslim, is actually a mandate for war.
> > >
> > >
> > Surah 4, verse 90 seems to water the previous verse (89) down a tad,
> > but how much? It seems that if those renegades have offered peace,
> > then it would not be quite alright to slay them wherever they are
> > found. The commentary in one of the Koran translations I've got (by
> > Maulana Muhammad Ali) to verse 90 points out this distinction.
> >
> > Slaying "them" wherever they are found still sounds a little over the
> > top IMO. Adding verse 91 (of surah 4) to the mix adds yet another
> > distiction the other way, of slaying them wherever found, but maybe
> > those are the ones who feign peacefulness?
> >
> > There could be an historical context to these verses not appreciated
> > by those who are bashing Islam in general or those who cling to Islam
> > as fundamentalists, like Christians who cling to Genesis in the face
> > of evolution. These Koran verses appear anachronisms not applicable to
> > the modern world, where people should learn to separate personal
> > belief from governance and law.
> >
>But that's exactly what the Militant Radical Muslims do NOT do; they
>recognize no separation between Church and State. All the peoples of
>the world are supposed to (according to Islam) perdure as a single
>Islamic Umma under the administration of shar'ia law. As long as that is
>not the case, there is work to be done; the Dar-al-Islam must contend
>with the Dar-Al Harb until the latter is defeated and the globe can be
>united under the Divinely Revealed Truth (except for the ideological
>niggers, that is, the Christians and Jews; they may pay taxes for the
>dubious privilege of second-hand dhimmitude, but all other Unbelievers
>- Atheists, Pagans, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, etc., - must be killed
>on sight by the Faithful, as the Qu'ran commands.).
>
>
You could have made your point without using the n----- word, which sends me
into orbit! I think your point is that the other "people of the book" are
the untermenschen of Islamic society and must pay tribute and differ to
their superiors, right? Pagans OTOH are considered even lower on the scale
of humanness, since they are not intellectually of Abraham?
How much of the Koranic (or Hadithic?) attitude towards Jews, Christians,
and pagans has to do with the troubles Muhammad encountered with these
groups during his endeavors before and/or after Gabriel spoke to him?
Interestingly the pagan groups of pre-Islamic Arabia seem to have had some
of the same traditions as Muslims regarding Mecca, right? Wasn't the Kaaba
meteorite held in reverence for instance? Wasn't there some sort of
pilgrimage or traffic into Mecca wrt the Kaaba stone? How much of the pagan
traditions Muhammed was familiar with as a member of the Koreish in Mecca
were carried over into his new religion, excluding the influences from
Judaism and Christianity? The parallel here would be how pre-Christian pagan
practices crept into Christainity and its traditions as Christianity was
imposed upon pagans. I'm thinking of Easter related fertility stuff and the
Nordic Yule among other things. Religions syncretize and hybridize.
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