From: Scott Chase (ecphoric@hotmail.com)
Date: Sat 09 Nov 2002 - 16:49:17 GMT
>From: Keith Henson <hkhenson@cogeco.ca>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Mini case study of memetic mutation
>Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 11:30:36 -0500
>
>At 11:13 PM 06/11/02 -0800, Bill Spight <bspight@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>Dear Richard,
>>
>> > <<Note that this memetic evolution is entirely in terms of expressions.
>> > <smile>, <s>, and :-) all mean the same thing. This means that memes
>>are
>> > *not* ideas, at least not all memes. The idea stayed the same while the
>> > expression evolved. Those favoring internal memes need to account for
>> > such change.>>
>> >
>> > I'm not sure I get your point here, Bill. How does the fact that
>>"<smile>,
>> > <s>, and :-) all mean the same thing" lead to the conclusion that not
>>all
>> > memes are ideas? Are you saying that ideas are not involved in my
>>choosing
>> > how I express myself?
>> >
>>Ideas may be involved in how we express ourselves, and, in general,
>>alternatives differ in both denotation and connotation. But ideas are
>>general and abstract. (The OED gives some senses of "idea" that would, I
>>think, apply to expressions per se, but they are obsolete.) In this case
>>we have three different expressions of the same idea. They were in
>>direct competition, and that is why, I think, one scored a clear
>>victory. That process of variation and selection did not occur on the
>>level of ideas, but it was still the variation and selection of memes.
>>
>>Phonemes are even clearer examples of memes that are not ideas. Welsh
>>LL, which is pronounced like HL with the tongue in the L position when
>>the H is made, has two descendents in English, FL and L, as in Floyd and
>>Lloyd.
>>
>>If you restrict memes to ideas you leave out a good bit of culture.
>
>I have used the infectiousness of certain speech cluttering phrases such as
>"you know" and "fact of the matter" as examples of infectious behaviors.
>As you point out here, they are memes that just don't make the grade as
>ideas.
>
Wait a minute. Has there been a memetic "inversion" event I'm not aware of?
As a matter of fact, I thought a popular phrase was "matter of fact".
The fact of the matter may be that it goes both ways.
>
>Most ideas are also memes, but you can have an idea that you don't
>communicate. The idea then fails a main test of being a meme (replication)
>though it may be a potential meme. (Until the holder dies, it could be
>replicated.)
>
>I like these corner cases. They make nice examples of how far the meme
>concept can go and where it should be cut off.
>
>Keith Henson
>
>
>
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>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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