From: Scott Chase (ecphoric@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue 05 Nov 2002 - 04:54:13 GMT
>From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
>Subject: RE: The terrorism meme
>Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 23:14:50 -0500
>
>Yes, that makes sense to me too.
>
>Jerusalem is tricky: there are in East Jerusalem old neighborhoods of
>Jewish
>residents that predate Israel, and some of new Israeli settlers. In West
>Jerusalem, there are neighborhoods of Palestinians, most of whom were there
>before Israel of the 1967 occupation, and some of whom are refugees from
>other parts of Israel. So the city is, conceptually, more of a
>checkerboard
>than an easily divided whole. In the peace negotiations that have taken
>place, Israel has tended to claim corridors that link the Jewish
>communities
>of East Jerusalem, so their 'checkerboard' ends up looking like a solid
>matrix with a few Palestinian enclaves omitted. Of course, the Palestinian
>claims look equally one-sided.
>
>Then, too, are the dispersion of Muslim, Christian and Jewish religious
>sites. There are a huge number of these, and some of them are co-located.
>Others are only of religious significance during certain times of the year,
>or for certain rites. Some are fundamentally important, while others are
>only of local significance.
>
>Not surprisingly, the status of Jerusalem is one of the several key issues
>that were left essentially unresolved at the last and most successful peace
>negotiations. I think this is one of the areas that will need a great
>amount of new thinking. The matter of both having their capitols in
>Jerusalem seems acceptable to the moderates of both sides.
>
>
How did the Palestinian right of return figure into how the most recent
talks had gone? Was that another sticking point?
I suppose "right of return" could mean several different things given
whether the refugees descended from the 1948 nakba or the displaced
resulting from the 67 War. Another difference would be whether they would
return to a Palestinian state in the West Bank or Gaza versus returning to
Israel proper itself.
There's repatriation versus compensation too.
I'm not very clear on these issues or how they were hashed out in recent
attempts at the peace process.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
>joedees@bellsouth.net
>Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:13 PM
>To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>Subject: RE: The terrorism meme
>
> > Don't forget the Golan Heights. There are more Israeli settlements and
> > settlers in the Golan than in Gaza; the Golan and Gaza have the same
> > 1967 legal status: Occupied Territories.
> >
>Israel would be well served to return the Golan Heights to Syria, and
>has been negotiating its return in return for Syrian security guarantees
>that it will not be used to launch attacks against Israel, either by Syria
>or
>by Muslim guerrillas.
> >
> > Israel Gov't also distinguishes between the West Bank and East
> > Jerusalem, and wants to hold on to the areas of East Jerusalem in
> > which there is substantial Jewish settlement though East Jerusalem is
> > within the West Bank (and occupied by Israel in 1967), and the areas
> > between these settlements, though they are inhabited solely by
> > Palestinians.
> >
>I think that the only feasible solution for Jerusalem is to allow both
>Israel and an eventual Palestinian state to locate their capitols in their
>respective preferred quarters of the city, and to internationalize its
>overall administration.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Lawry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
> > Behalf Of joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41
> > PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: The terrorism meme
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: joedees@bellsouth.net
> > > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk, fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
> > > >Subject: Re: The terrorism meme
> > > >Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:02:16 -0600
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > joedees@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.meforum.org/article/175
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Middle East Forum, ("Protecting America's Interests) -
> > > > > colleagues of our friends in Campus Watch.
> > > > >
> > > >Ad hominem. Check out the articles, and judge them on their
> > > >merits. I could have posted scathing critiques of Edward Said, but
> > > >refrained.
> > > >
> > > What's the problem with Ed Said? I haven't read a whole lot of what
> > > he's written, but he wrote an essay that capped off the book _The
> > > War for Palestine_ (edited by Eugene Rogan and Avi Shlaim. 2001.
> > > Cambridge University Press. Cambridge UK) which seemed alright to
> > > me. Also writing essays in this book were Benny Morris and Avi
> > > Shlaim, who are Israeli "New Historians" that those on the Israeli
> > > far right might consider as bad as Said because they don't tow the
> > > line of standard Israeli historiography.
> > >
> > You might wanna check out:
> > http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/17/jan99/said.htm
> > >
> > > I've no problems with the general spirit of Palestinian
> > > self-determination, but the tactics used have been abhorrent. I've
> > > no truck with suicide bombers and if the moderates of the
> > > Palestinian side don't start coming to the forefront and taking back
> > > the reins of their cause from the Islamicists and other assorted
> > > extremist rejection fronters, I can't see much more than a whole lot
> > > more needless bloodletting down the road. I can't blame Israel for
> > > retaliation, but I also see settlement policies as not being
> > > helpful.
> > >
> > > Hopefully Israel takes a turn toward the left or center left with
> > > all the commotion surrounding late breaking power struggles. A vote
> > > of no confidence in the Knesset could go a long way to securing the
> > > future of the peace process. The Likud Revisionists and the
> > > nationalist religious right are impeding the peace process too, via
> > > settlement policies in the occupied territories.
> > >
> > As long as the Palestinian suicide bombings continue, Israel will be
> > forced into a stance of pre-emptive occupation. I agree that the
> > Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza should be removed. > > >
> > _________________________________________________________________ >
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>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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