From: joedees@bellsouth.net
Date: Tue 05 Nov 2002 - 03:51:23 GMT
> >Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:59:40 -0600
> >
> > > >You could just as easily have made the case with a wolf pack, but
> > > >we are still discussing an instinctive, not a chosen, series of
> > > >actions.
> > > > Self- preservation trumps sex in the ram hard-wire hierarchy,
> > > > and
> > > >the female doen't seem to have the choice of mating with the
> > > >smaller ram because she thinks he is cute. The pecking order is
> > > >a lockstep structure.
> > > > >
> > > Sounds to me like you're anthropromorphizing. Cute is a human way
> > > of looking at things. There's no reason to think it plays any
> > > part in the choices of other species. Every species has to make
> > > choices based on the way they live and the way their bodies are
> > > structured -- even humans. Like I said, if memes in your scheme
> > > require culture as we know it, humans are the only ones capable of
> > > having them. If all it requires is learning something from other
> > > members of the same species, almost every species can demonstrate
> > > it. If you say animals don't make decisions based on what they
> > > learn from other dogs or people, even my dog can refute your
> > > argument.
> > >
> >Actually, I consider those who cannot draw memetic distinctions
> >between humans (and to a small degree, the higher apes) and the
> >lower animals to be the anthropomorphizers. My point was that the
> >ewe's hardwiring does not grant her the option to choose to accept
> >the attentions of the losing ram. With human females, however, the
> >suitor who wins a fight about her is not necessarily the suitor she
> >will choose; she may choose the loser, or even neither of them,
> >considering their behavior to be unacceptable. And behavioral
> >conditioning is not a qualifier for memetic meaning grasp (or are you
> >claiming that Skinner's target-pecking pigeons are memetic
> >signification sophisticates?).
> > >
> > > Grant
> > >
> I'm not talking about Skinner or his pigeons. I'm talking about such
> things as when my dog first lifted his leg to piss on a plant in the
> livingroom and I growled at him. He didn't piss and as far as I know
> has never pissed in the house since. I formed a verbal signal he
> understood and he changed his behavior based on what I communicated to
> him with that signal. There was no endless behavioral training.
> There was just a message received and acted upon one time and
> continued from that time on in contravention to his normal genetic
> tendencies.
>
No, he was obeying his genetic tendencies to heed you, his surrogate
pack leader, and not piss you off (or on).
>
> When we had two dogs, I saw one dog learn several methods of cheating
> the other dog out of his portion of the dog chow. In the beginning,
> one dog just intimidated the other dog and ate both portions. Then I
> put their food in different places where they couldn't see each other.
> When the intimidator came running over the other dog ran to the big
> dog's dish and ate. Then the big dog would try to eat quickly and run
> over to intimidate the other. He couldn't eat fast enough. This game
> of dominance and trickery went on until I finally started punishing
> whichever dog I found eating out of the other's bowl. The games
> stopped.
>
Once again, one dog was attempting to be the boss, and was
succeeding; the other dog, rather than confront him, attempted to feed
himself while evading the other dog. But when you asserted your pack
leadership, both dogs acquiesced.
>
> The punishment consisted of a scolding and a swat with a newspaper,
> but the message was transmitted and understood.
>
Yep; fuck with the boss, and you'll get your ass kicked.
>
> Grant
>
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> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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