Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id WAA26012 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 23 May 2002 22:08:25 +0100 From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Boom! and you go to Heaven Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 17:04:21 -0400 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAIEDADAAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-reply-to: <F96z8Phg8VMb5UWgP1A00006c2e@hotmail.com> Importance: Normal Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> at's a very complicated issue but Deir Yassin might be one
> event that adds
> force to the "forced out" or "scared out" argument. OTOH, weren't some
> Palestinans compelled by other Arabs in hopes that Isreal would
> be quickly
> defeated in 1948 and the Palestinians could then return?
Palestinians civilians fled before the Israeli army in the 1948 war, and
this was part of the objective of the war -- to secure as Israeli lands, at
a minimum that were 'given' to Israel by the UN in the Partition Resolution.
Some Zionist/Israeli groups clearly felt that those lands were insufficient,
and so the Israeli Army, easily beating off the Arab armies that were
mobilized against the Partition Resolution and its implementation, went well
beyond the Resolution lines, stopping at what we now call the 1967 lines. In
the process, they seized lands that could connect Jerusalem (which was to
have been an International Zone under the Partition Resolution, located
within the Palestinian state). Thus many Palestinian refugees ended up
beyond the '1967' lines, in the remaining bits of Palestine, or in Jordan,
Syria, Lebanon, and elsewhere. Interestingly, Palestinian sometimes refer
to this as the 'Palestinian Diaspora.'
There is no doubt that there were anti-Palestinian atrocities committed by
Israeli irregular units, like the Stern and Irgun Gangs, and that messages
aimed at the Palestinians by the Israeli government encouraged them to leave
their homes. As Begin says in his memoirs, while not admitting
responsibility for Der Yassin, the fact that it occurred was helpful in that
it convinced the Palestinians civilians to flee all the more rapidly.
Greetings, Scott,
There is no evidence that Arab leaders urged the Palestinians to flee. This
is a long-repeated assertion, so often repeated that it is taken as
accurate. But there have seen a couple of careful studies into this
question, and none have found any corroboration for the assertion. But even
if any such urgings had been made, they have no legal relevance to the
status of the Palestinians. Why?
The controlling fact, in all this, was the subsequent treatment of the
Palestinian refugees: they were, simply, never allowed to return to their
homes. Israel dismissed their legal right to return (see the Geneva
Conventions, which are explicit on this), and enacted a series of measures
that in effect allowed the Israeli authorities to confiscate
Pealtinian-owned lands, businesses, and homes. IMO, this, more than the
military expulsion of the Palestinians, or the (isolated, IMO) atrocities
against them, or any advice that Arab leaders are purposrted to have given
them, controls the legal conclusion we must reach regarding the Palestinian
refugees, their status, and claims.
The fact that Hanan Ashrawi is both prominent and female is not too unusual.
It is part of Arab culture that 'strong women' emerge in positions of high
moral and sometimes political leadership. In Arab culture, women have
control over their own property, belong to extensive social and information
networks, and have considerable 'behind the scene' influence. (See Freya
Stark's GUESTS OF THE SHEIKH, and Lane's THE MANNERS AND CUSTOMS OF MODERN
EGYPTIANS for two among many descriptions of this phenomenon.)
Within Palestine (and Lebanon), Christians have always held prominent
positions in the Arab culture. I would _guess_ this is primarily due to
their easier and beneficial contacts with Christian Europe. There may be
other reasons, too: I'll check around a bit and if I get anything new, I'll
report it here.
Regards,
Lawrence
> I'm trying to quickly re-read Ahron Bregman's concise but informative
> _Israel's Wars, 1947-93_ (2000. Routledge. New York), so I'll try
> to brush
> up a little on Israel's War of Independence. I found Bregman's
> book a good
> companion to Arik Sharon's _Warrior_ as Sharon was involved in all these
> wars.
>
> Looks like Arik's facing a possible "no-confidence" in the Knesset. There
> could be more conflict within Israel's gov't coming beyond the Likud
> infighting between Sharon and Netanyahu.
> >
> >Christian Palestinians, helped by Christian
> >western churches received considerable assistance in moving to Europe and
> >the US. I haven't seen any survey data, but anecdotally would guess that
> >Christian Palestinians are just as determined to get their homes in
> >Palestine back as Muslim Palestinians. Hanan Ashrawi, for example, is a
> >Christian and leading spokesperson for the Palestinians. I didn't know
> >about George Habash -- thanks for the information.
> >
> Plus, something I heard before but is corroborated by Aburish's
> book is that
> Arafat's wife Suha is a Christian.
>
> I'm intrigued by Ashrawi. I have seen her several times on the
> news as the
> "go to" person when a moderate Palestinian opinion is needed on
> some issue.
> That she is Christian (and female) is very interesting. Sort of
> demolishes
> whatever superficial stereotypes may exist along the lines that
> Palestinian
> equals Muslim extremist.
>
> Aburish doesn't seem to be all too fond of Arafat or at least he's
> presenting Arafat in a very critical light.
> >
> >It would be interesting to listen to a discussion between a Christian
> >Palestinian and a US Christian fundamentalist Zionist.
> >
> >
> Yes indeed.
> >
> (snip)
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
> [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > > Of Scott Chase
> > > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 6:06 PM
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: Re: Boom! and you go to Heaven
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Wade T.Smith" <wade_smith@harvard.edu>
> > > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > >Subject: Re: Boom! and you go to Heaven
> > > >Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 18:51:55 -0400
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On Sunday, May 19, 2002, at 06:17 , Lawrence DeBivort wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>The matter of 'going to heaven and finding virgins, of whatever
> > > gender, is
> > > >>a
> > > >>western oerception and preoccupation--not a Muslim one. IIRC, the
> >Bible
> > > >>suggests that someone martyred for Christendom is rewarded with
> >heaven,
> > > >>but
> > > >>I doubt many western soldiers leap to arms with that hope in
> > > mind.... Is
> > > >>there a Christian or Christian scholar on the list who can fill in
> >this
> > > >>idea?
> > > >
> > > >It's not 'not even' a Muslim one- the mention of houri's in the
> > > paradise of
> > > >the afterlife is apocryphal in the q'uran according to many islamic
> > > >scholars.
> > > >
> > > >But, serving one's god and country, and the giving up of
> one's life for
> > > >those authorities, is an old and perhaps ageless, and perhaps
> >culturally
> > > >non-isolated property of society. It is certainly not just a
> xian or an
> > > >islamic hero that offers his life in battle.
> > > >
> > > It's been a while since I've been to church but that hymn "Onward
> > > Christian
> > > soldiers marching as to war" comes to mind. Whatever the intent
> > > behind this
> > > hymn was there are some crusading connotations at least at first
> > > sight. It
> > > could be a metaphorical "war" like jihad is supposedly a metaphorical
> > > internal struggle and not the externalized one we've seen
> waged against
> > > US-ian and Israeli targets.
> > >
> > > Since Dr. George Habash of the Popular Front for the Liberation
> > > of Palestine
> > > and the earlier Arab Nationalist Movement was a Greek Orthodox
> > > Christian, a
> > > factoid I picked up from reading Said Aburish's _Arafat: from
> Defender
> >to
> > > Dictator_ (1998. Bloomsbury. New York), I'm led to wonder to
> what degree
> > > Christian Arabs have contributed to the Palestinian side of the
> > > Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
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> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
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> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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