Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id KAA07007 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 23 May 2000 10:47:33 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1CF@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Why are human brains bigger? Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:44:14 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
I think this distinction between act and behave is a semantic one, there are
things that animals and humans do that do not require beliefs, that's the
only point I was making.
It may be that humans' active behaviour is belief-reliant (breathing is
passive, hunting is active in the sense I mean it here), and it's certainly
interesting that you tie it in with the notion of self-awareness.
I indeed think there is an important distinction between the beliefs you
describe, which I totally accept and agree with, and religious beliefs, and
perhaps it is the latter I'm thinking more of. The difference I think comes
in the material consequences which are less concrete with religious belief
tied as they are to abstract ideas and rituals. One of the problems is that
the two sorts of beliefs are often conflated- as with the rain dance.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Robin Faichney
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 4:10 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Why are human brains bigger?
>
> On Mon, 22 May 2000, Vincent Campbell wrote:
> >So what are all those organisms that (probably) don't have beliefs, like
> >insects, doing?
>
> They don't act, but they do behave.
>
> >The implicit point is that beliefs are not required for survival per se,
> so
> >the question is, why do humans need beliefs?
>
> I wouldn't assume that they do. The fact that something exists doesn't
> imply it's required. But see also below.
>
> >The biggest problem, as I think I've said, is that only humans seem to
> >express beliefs in external ways, through ritual essentially, and there
> >seems to be a clear point in human evolution when ritual emerged. So
> what
> >was is that created the conditions in which natural selection favoured
> >humans that had beliefs, which it undoubtedly appears to have done?
> >Moreover, what were the triggers that turned internal beliefs into shared
> >ritual behaviours?
>
> You seem to be thinking particularly about religious beliefs, but I'm not
> sure they're the best examples. I might believe that a particular area is
> best for hunting, and such simple, concrete beliefs are likely to have
> come about earlier than religious ones, I'd guess.
>
> However, that misses the point I was trying to make linking belief with
> action. It seems to me that a member of a simpler species might well
> exhibit behaviour quite similar to that of a human who had the
> hunting area belief. So what's the difference (if any)? The human
> thinks "I believe this, and I want to influence my comrades, because
> not only will we have success in our hunting, but I'll get the credit".
> And the animal doesn't! So what I'm saying is that belief and the
> self-concept go together, and action goes right along with them. The
> animal can be said to have a sort of working hypothesis, but it does
> not have a concept with which it identifies: "I, me, my belief!". Nor
> does it act on the basis of such a belief -- it just does what it's
> inclined to do. Susan Blackmore would have us be just like that, and
> I'm inclined to agree with her.
>
> --
> Robin Faichney
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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