Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id RAA20473 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:26:43 +0100 From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu> To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Bush's War on Terrorism Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:21:21 -0400 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMACEIMCOAA.debivort@umd5.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: <LAW2-F1145tX60LUDA1000092cc@hotmail.com> Importance: Normal Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Well, its hard to argue with such charming candor, Grant. <smile>
But I would ask you to take more care when it comes to characterizing people
wholesale, especially if you are basing it msimply on what you read in
newspapers. The US media are notoriously anti-Arab/Muslim, especially after
Sept. 11. I understand what you mean about the CIA: they have also botched
predictions regarding the USSR/Russia, and the Middle East. It is also true
that they have to wrestle with the biases and demands for agreeable
confirmations from their clients. Your own experience with China will, I
think, help you realize what I mean about the need for first hand knowledge
on some of these matters, including, when it comes to the Middle East
especially, something more than newspaper reading.
For what it is worth, I would _strongly_ recommend to you and all other list
members first-hand visits to the Middel East. I would be glad to help any
list members think further about this, if you like, in separate emails.
Cheers,
Lawry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Grant Callaghan
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 11:06 AM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Bush's War on Terrorism
>
>
> >
> >Good morning, Grant
> >
> >Please read your own questiont. First you talked about 'the people,' now
> >you merely give instances of [some] people, and attribute to these the
> >larger proposition. Talk about stereotyped generalization!
> >
> >By your own redefinition of your question, you would have to include the
> >US,
> >UK, France, Mexico, Japan, Argentina, Brazil, El Salvador, Serbia, etc.
> >etc.
> >as countryies lacking a "contented and peaceful people." So what is your
> >point, then? Other than to express anti-semiticism and bash Muslims?
> >
> >Yes, I do imagine we live in different worlds, and read
> different things. I
> >read books, I actually study issues before shooting my mouth off.
> >
> >Grant, have you ever travelled to the Muslim world? If so, for how long?
> >Ever lived in a Muslim country? Have you ever read a book about
> the Muslim
> >world (and I don't mean one of those flashy trash books that
> were hurried
> >to
> >the book stands post Sept. 11)? If so, please tell us. If so,
> a quiz will
> >follow.
> >
> >Lawrence
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk
> [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > > Of Grant Callaghan
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:06 AM
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: RE: Bush's War on Terrorism
> > >
> > >
> > > >Subject: RE: Bush's War on Terrorism
> > > >Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 23:04:38 -0400
> > > >
> > > > > Grant Callaghan:
> > > > > A muslim country where the people are
> > > > > not dreaming
> > > > > about killing each other or someone else. I don't know of
> > > one. Do you?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Kuwait. Yemen. Tunisia. Morocco. Syria. Turkey. Jordan. Saudi
> > > Arabia. Oman.
> > > >Uinted Arab Emirates. Libya. Egypt.
> > > >
> > > Obviously we read different newspapers. The 9/11 terrorists and a
> >goodly
> > > number of the Al Quaeda are from Saudi Arabia. Egypt harbors many
> >people
> > > who have committed numerous murders in the name of Allah. Turkey has
> >the
> > > Kurds. Jordan has the Palestinians. Wasn't it in Yemen that the
> > > U.S. lost
> > > a ship? All of the places you mentioned are in the midst of
> turmoil and
> > > have people trying to kill each other or trying to kill others
> > > for religious
> > > reasons. Kuwait, maybe, although you could say they were recently at
> >war
> > > with Iraq. They certainly don't harbor any good will toward
> > > Sadam Hussein.
> > > And before the invasion there was a bit of discontent among
> the people.
> > > Saudi Arabia also harbors people who killed a goodly number of
> > > Americans who
> > > were protecting the ruling families. I can't really say you've made
> >your
> > > point here. A large number of Saudis living in England fled
> > > there to escape
> > > harsh treatment by their government. And Lybia -- considering
> > > the amount of
> > > mischief it does in the world and the countries around it, you've
> > > got to be
> > > kidding.
> > >
> > > If those are your idea of contented and peaceful people, we live in
> > > different worlds.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Grant
> > >
> > >
> I do tend to argue out of ignorance, but what I see going on in those
> countries is available in the newspapers for all to see. Explain
> to me how
> government under the Koran works. Is that a good foundation for
> running a
> modern country?
>
> I have stayed out of muslim countries for the same reason that so many
> muslims have left their countries. I don't want to deal with a
> system that
> commits mayhem on people for what I consider slight offenses. Until
> recently, I stayed out of China for the same reason. That
> doesn't keep me
> from knowing what's going on in China, though. My predictions about what
> would happen there, when bet against those of the CIA, left me
> with no doubt
> my knowledge was founded on better observations than theirs. What I
> predicted would happen, happened. What they predicted, didn't.
>
> As for shooting my mouth off, that's par for the course on a forum like
> this. I have always claimed my opinions are based on my own
> world view. I
> don't expect my view to be the same as everyone elses. I don't, however,
> see that as a reason to not stand behind what I believe. For the
> most part
> I see few others here with any clearer view of the truth than my
> own foggy
> vision. That doesn't keep them from shooting from the lip, just as I do.
>
> It's not semites I'm against, anyway. It's people who want to
> govern others
> with edicts from the dark ages. It just happens that more semites are
> engaged in that behavior right now than most other cultures. That's an
> accident of time and place rather than a racial trait. The past and the
> future seem to be at war with each other. I happen to favor the
> future and
> the hope it offers. Those who don't will have to make their own
> choices and
> live with the consequences, just as I will.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Grant
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Apr 17 2002 - 18:23:42 BST