Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id LAA03639 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 9 Apr 2002 11:19:39 +0100 Message-ID: <570E2BEE7BC5A34684EE5914FCFC368C10FBFB@fillan.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Wildebeest !! Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:42:35 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Filter-Info: UoS MailScan 0.1 [D 1] X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Hi everyone,
Playing a bit of catch up here, so apologies for any repeated points. I'll
keep comments short.
I'm not sure there's evidence in river crossing like this of self-sacrifice,
although I vaguely recall reading somewhere of the possibility of sacrifice
(if that's not a loaded term...) in animals.
Vincent
> ----------
> From: Kenneth Van Oost
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 20:46 PM
> To: kennethvanoost@myrealbox.com
> Subject: Wildebeest !!
>
> Hi all,
>
>
> Reading something about altruistic suicide_ somebody kills/ sacrifies him-
> self for the good and better cause // youngsters kill themselves because
> they think that without them around things will get better in the
> household_
> I was wondering !
>
> What about the fact that if wildebeests/ zebra's have to cross a river,
> can/ may
> we ' recognize ' the same characteristic lets say by the first animal that
> jumps into the water and in most cases will/ can be eaten/ killed by a
> crocodile !?
>
> After all, what is the difference between the act of killing oneself to
> get
> things better and killing yourself by jumping first in the river so that
> the
> group you belong to can/ may cross easier/ savier !? ( If of course my
> reasoning ends up !!)
> Of course, and I agree, we can say that it is the wildebeest its instincts
> that drives it along and the first who gets to the river has no luck_ can
> we
> forsee a link with the boy who commits suicide in order to take away the
> tensions that rages in the household !?
> What makes an animal to go first !? Like we said, instinct !?
>
> Ok, but all the beasts does have, I presume an equal characteristic, so
> in a way, each of them can be the first to jump but only one does it.
> And yes, we can ackowledge the fact that the one who actually jumps
> first is forced/ pushed in to it by the group to take the lead, but can we
> be sure !?
> If so, how and why !?
>
> We had such an discussion before covering why birds go in one direction
> presumably all together at the same moment in time ( they follow a
> leader),
> but in the case of the wildebesst, if it was the leader who goes first,
> where
> is the gain for the group, left behind without its captain !?
> I reckon it will all come down to instinct and internal behavioral aspects
> but I can 't stop wondering how mush such behavior corresponds with what
> we can observe by a human child.
>
> Moreover, thinking about it, by ants the same behavior can be spotted_
> some dive into the water to make a brigde/ a floating harnas to support
> others so that those can cross, drowning themselves in the process of
> doing so !
>
> Anyone !?
>
> Regards,
>
> Kenneth
>
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