Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA09199 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:38:14 GMT Message-ID: <000901c1d5bf$05f38600$8da7eb3e@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <kennethvanoost@myrealbox.com> References: <LAW2-F58FOh1vdkmyCF0001a697@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: FW: MD Dawkins on quantum/mysticism convergence Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:40:44 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: Grant Callaghan <grantc4@hotmail.com>
That's where the twain no longer meet, Kenneth. I say a word means what I
use it to mean when I manke an assertion. You may not understand what I
mean by it, or you may think I'm not using the word properly, but the
meaning of the word I mean when I say it is mine. What you get from it is
yours. The "meaning" you are talking about is the most common meaning as
exhibited in a dictionary. But if you are trying to understand what I or
anyone else is saying, you have to make a judgement about what I/they are
using the word to mean. You will understand my words in direct proportion
to your familiarity with how I have used those words in the past. The less
familiar you are, the less likely you are to understand.
A hip, for example, is commonly a reference to a part of the body. But if I
ask, "Are you hip?" that's a different usage entirely. And if I say "I'm
going to hip you in the head," that's a meaning you might have to reach for
to understand. But how I use the word determines what it means to the
people I am addressing it to. Jazz musicians might have no trouble at all
understanding that last quotation. An English teacher, on the other hand,
might just be confused by it.
Hi Grant,
Yeah, that is what Putman meant, I suppose.
You mustn 't confuse the meaning of the words/ expressions with the usual
criteria which defines the reference of a word.
Everybody knows,( like you with Hip) a lot of stereotypical characteris-
tics about what ' hip ' could mean. You have mentioned a few.
But if the meaning of a word is fixed into its reference, than is the
meaning
of that word what IT IS.
In Putmans example, the reference is fixed by which what the substance
has to be in all kinds of different worlds possible to be water_ thus H2O.
In all possible worlds water has to be H2O and H2O has to be water
and not like Putman said " twater ".
It means that you indeed can use the word ' hip ' in all the by us known
possibilities ( and a few new ones can be found, I don 't doubt that), but
you can 't make up a few where ' hip ' looses its reference_ that is its
meaning in all possible worlds.
Meaning, that the 'real meaning' of any word is known only to a small
group of people_ only by jazz players for example.
You can indeed force a new meaning for the word hip, but only after
agreement it will be accepted as such.
You can 't say, in a way I am going to blow my hip... I suppose every-
body will know what you are talking about ( by resemblance), but ' hip '
has no reference with/ to that expression.
Jus for laughs_ break a hip ! Sounds more agressive than the tendency
for good fortune if you break a leg, don 't you think !?
That is what Putman meant, without the reference a word has no meaning.
PS, I am not an expert in such matters, I was just reading an article....
Regards,
Kenneth
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Mar 27 2002 - 18:49:01 GMT