Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id NAA14343 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 19 May 2000 13:48:55 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1C1@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Why are human brains bigger? Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:46:55 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Well, aren't you saying that all aspects of human behaviour are determined
by natural selection?
What I'm saying here, is what if some of the behaviours that have emerged
from natural selection introduce new pressures on selection, such as the
rapidity of environmental change brought about by the development of
technology. These may impact on (problematize may be too strong a word)
behaviours determined by natural selection because the pace of transmisson
and change in things like technology is far faster than change at the pace
of natural selection.
> ----------
> From: Chuck Palson
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 3:03 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Why are human brains bigger?
>
>
>
> Vincent Campbell wrote:
>
> > I don't think culture exists in isolation from, or opposition to,
> natural
> > selection, only that it exists in addition to natural selection,
> producing
> > new effects on behaviour that may conflict, or at least problematize,
> > behaviour produced by natural selection.
>
> Vincent -
> There is another point of view on this represented by Pinker. The cultural
> traits distinctive of humans may, he suspects, be closely tied to changes
> in the
> brain. He is prompted to say this partly because of the history of cave
> paintings found in Europe. Until recently we figured that Lascaux cave in
> France, about 20,000 years ago, is when the human species may have started
> doing
> this sort of thing, and since there didn't seem to be any discernable
> differences in brain structure around that time, it was supposed that this
> culture was simply "added" in addition to what was gained from natural
> selection
> - which is what you posit. But now we know that exactly the same kinds of
> paintings existed in africa 50,000 years before. There is evidently some
> evidence of changes in brain structure that would account for this. (I
> can't
> find the reference right now.)
>
> I sure would like to know why you say that culture may "problemtize" or
> "conflict with" behavior "produced" by natural selection. I even have
> trouble
> grasping what you mean by that. We have made logic by itself a tool that
> does
> not depend on context. Or, by introducing long term voice communication,
> we have
> been forced to relate to each other purely by voice without seeing body
> language. I suspect that these are examples of what you are talking about,
> no?
> And if so, how do these show what you are talking about when you use the
> words
> problemtize and conflict.
>
> >
> > I've said elsewhere on this list what I think the next set of questions
> then
> > are, but I'd acknowledge that if you didn't see this distinction then
> those
> > questions don't follow, and natural selection answers all the questions.
> > But it seems self evident to me that the distinction is valid, and so
> are
> > the questions that arise from it. [but I doubt you'll be convinced :-)]
> >
> > Vincent
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Chuck Palson
> > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 9:48 am
> > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > Subject: Re: Why are human brains bigger?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Vincent Campbell wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think arguing that animals have cultures is dangerously like
> > > > anthropomorphism.
> > >
> > > I think that arguing that animals don't have cultures is dangerously
> like
> > > anthropomorphism. The more we study animals, the more we see the
> > > similarities.
> > > There are differences between humans and other species, but they get
> > > really hard
> > > to pin down.
> > >
> > > > As to the group selection thing, well I'm going from the various
> > > different
> > > > statements made to this effect by the likes of Dawkins, and Gould et
> al.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I would be surprised to find Gould saying this. If you happen to run
> into
> > > any
> > > references on this, please pass them along.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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