Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id XAA07039 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:47:54 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.240.222.132] From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Rumsfeld Says He May Drop New Office of Influence Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:42:31 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F282XhHbBsYZYc5fFv300013ef3@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2002 23:42:31.0711 (UTC) FILETIME=[6C85CAF0:01C1BFE8] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
>Subject: RE: Rumsfeld Says He May Drop New Office of Influence
>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:46:28 -0500
>
>Hi, Scott, I don't have time to repeat the several longish emails I have
>posted over the last months on US response to Sept. 11, so I ask you to run
>those down in the archives if you are interested in a fuller response to
>your questions and statements.
>
>In brief summarization: the US should have treated Sept 11 as a criminal
>matter, not one of "war", taken the Afghan gov't up on its offer to
>extradite bin Laden, after providing an indictment (standard extradition
>procedure), tried him as we did the attackers of the WTC a few years ago
>and
>more recent US embassy bombings.
>
Care to predict how many decades that would have taken? Maybe our up front
"in your face" military approach (coupled with going after the money trail
of the al-Qaeda networks) redeced the ability of the terrorists to carry out
some other things they may have slated. OTOH trying to go through the
process of extradition would have left the training and planning apparati
intact within Afghanistan. They may have suffered enough of a setback due to
our intense bombing campaign coupled with Afghan friendlies helping us on
the ground to have weakened them somewhat. Slaying the hydra will not be an
easy objective, but the first step seems to have been in a positive
direction IMO. I could be wrong.
>
>The US should have carried a few
>target-hardening procedures, rather than embrace 'for-show-only' fake but
>highly visible security measures. The US should, and may still yet, turn
>the
>WTC site into a memorial that will stress our values of democracy, social
>responsibility, tolerance and optimism. And the US should have initiated
>well-crafted interactions and dialogue with cultures and countries whence
>the WTC attackers sprung.
>
The terrorists want us out of Saudi and dislike our stance towards Israel.
They probably don't like our relationships, however strained, with the
leaders in Saudi, Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. It's hard to have a dialogue
with extremists indoctrinated within the world-view that we are evil
incarnate and Zionist co-conspirators.
At least some of the gov't entities in these countries are trying to get the
ball towards peace between Israel and the Palestinians rolling. I haven't
read up enough on the proposal Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah has been touting
to know how much it entails beyond Israel returning to pre-1967 borders in
exchange for peace and Arab recognition. Abdullah appears as a moderate in
this, which may not go over well with the Islamist extremists, those same
people whom we are supposed to be dialoguing with. I have my reservations
about the house of Saud, but if Abdullah can pull off a peace deal, more
power to him. I don't see entities like al-Qaeda attempting something such
as this and I'm wondering how Hamas and the multitude of anti-Israel
Islamist groups will react to the possibility of a comprehensive peace (even
if a Palestinian state might evolve from it eventually).
Nonetheless, the hydra remains and there are other heads to lop off ASAP.
Your calls to more diplomatic methods are noble, but I prefer gunship
diplomacy when it gets down to a serious situation as we have now.
>
>In other words, we should be demonstrating the
>qualities that have made America admired around the world, and not those
>that, along with some other international policies, are earning us
>contempt,
>arousing fear, and confirming suspicions that the US is turning into a
>lone-dog and unaccountable country.
>
>
What happens *if* the U.S. and Russia start co-operating. Aren't we possibly
entering into the Georgian conflict? As much as I might enjoy ragging on the
Brits, they will (however begrudgingly, reluctantly and critically) probably
stick by us.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> > Of Scott Chase
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 10:47 PM
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: Rumsfeld Says He May Drop New Office of Influence
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Wade Smith <wade_smith@harvard.edu>
> > >Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > >To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > >Subject: Re: Rumsfeld Says He May Drop New Office of Influence
> > >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:40:07 -0500
> > >
> > >On Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 01:39 , Lawrence DeBivort wrote:
> > >
> > >>what we are doing - Afghanistan, "war on terrorism" language,
> > >>Ashcroft legal actions, emphasis on hardening US targets rather than
> > >>defusing terrorist motivation -- all of this is stupid and
>ineffective.
> > >
> > >Can you point to an _unstupid_ national policy and actions,
> > >anywhere in the world? We all want enlightened leaders, but
> > >really, I personally don't know of any government anywhere that
> > >is a shining example of non-stupidity.
> > >
> > >And I'm _not_ trying to wave any flags.
> > >
> > >
> > I'd like to hear a viable alternative to US military action in
> > Afghanistan,
> > especially given the historic circumstances of 9/11. Are the doves
>silent
> > when it comes down to this, once they've whined about the
> > stupidity of going
> > after the terrorists in their backyard?
> >
> > Afghanistan has been a smashing success so far, al-Quaeda and
> > Taliban sent
> > scurrying into the darkness realizing they bit off way more than
> > they could
> > chew. We've also gotten some decent intelligence on their networks from
> > surveying the abandoned complexes and from the detainees at Camp X-ray.
> >
> > What remains is whether a decent gov't can be established in
> > Afghanistan and
> > whether they can get over their ethnic discord and become a
> > nation. We don't
> > have any control over their feelings for eachother.
> >
> > It was realized that Afghanistan would not be the end-all of the war on
> > terrorism, so more action remains to be taken, wherever that may wind up
> > being. AFAICT bin Laden's plight is uncertain. His
> > existence/non-existence
> > should not serve as a barometer of success. I might not like
> > Bush's views on
> > taxes or social issues and I might have reservations about the
> > Enron debacle
> > (esp. with the GAO going after Cheney), but at least Bush ain't
> > one to play
> > ostrich when it comes to getting serious in the trenches and
> > crushing the
> > terrorists.
> >
> > Now how are we supposed to defuse the terrorist motivation? A
> > peacefest with
> > bands and flowers? I'm not a fan of Sharon and would like to see
> > Palestinians get some degree of self-governance, statehood and
> > respect, but
> > it seems that nothing short of eliminating the state of Israel
> > would satisfy
> > the terrorists. I can't go for that.
> >
> > I don't have any flags to wave.
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>
>
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