Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id OAA05700 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:48:32 GMT Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D3102A6D2A2@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Rumsfeld Says He May Drop New Office of Influence Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:41:28 -0000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Filter-Info: UoS MailScan 0.1 [D 1] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>>How many months now, and where is bin Laden?
<Well, now....
> This seems like a most tepid condemnation to me.
>
> As the savvy, retrogrouch lawyer said in the Star Trek episode where Kirk
> was being court-martialed, 'it's only easy to find a man who _wants_ to
> be found.'>
>
Ok, but I was merely pointing out that the initial goal was to
capture bin Laden and close down al-qaeda. Whilst he is at large, surely
al-qaeda is not closed down? Whatever the plaudits we might offer for
bringing down the Taliban, that was surely a side issue. If bin Laden had
been elsewhere in the world, the Taliban would still be in power. A bit
like Musharaff- a military dictator who took power via a coup- suddenly
becoming Blair and Bush's best buddy. Expediency rules in international
relations.
<The history of the world (nay, the record of nature itself) is a
litany
> of crimes and justices committed by people who have never come to their
> senses, whatever that means. As you say, decades in North Ireland, and no
> lessons seem to be learned.>
>
That depends how you view the peace process in N.Ireland. Many
still oppose it outright and commit violent acts, but many have put down
their arms. Coming to their sense means recognising human rights,
recognising self-determination, recognising negotiation is less damaging
than war. Call me a naive woolly liberal pacifist if you like...
<When I do 'flag-wave', it is to point to the lessons that created
the
> documents that created this country, the declarations and manifestoes of
> independence. If only the real flag had all those words somehow on it,
> I'd wave that too.... It's supposed to....>
>
Indeed, the British eventually had to acknowledge the intractable
situation in the colony- that you lot would never give up until you got
rights of self-determination, and that continuing to fight would cripple us
to the point that our rights to self-determination would probably be taken
away by a neighbour invading us. You lot also had the sense to write down
more or less exactly what it was you'd been fighting for, which despite its
limitations is far better than what we've got (or rather not got) in
Britain.
Flag-waving in any context other than sport (and even there much of
the time) is a risky activity, yet we all engage in it wittingly or
otherwise.
Vincent
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