Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id AAA27263 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 25 Feb 2002 00:46:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.240.222.132] From: "Scott Chase" <ecphoric@hotmail.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Words and memes Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:40:49 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F15jSae3naPmxrmbKKf0001c489@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Feb 2002 00:40:49.0302 (UTC) FILETIME=[12029360:01C1BD95] Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>From: "Dace" <edace@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Words and memes
>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:17:07 -0800
>
>
> > >From: Francesca S. Alcorn
> > >
> > > > Keith said:
> > > > >
> > > > >"A more seductive example of a social movement set off by a lethal
> > > > >meme comes from South Africa. In the 1850s, a meme (originally
> > > > >derived from a dream) led to a great sacrifice by the Xhoas people
> > > > >during which they killed their cattle, burned their grain, and
> > > > >refrained from planting in the belief that doing so would cause
>their
> > > > >ancestors to come back from the dead and expel the whites. At
> > > > >least 20,000 and perhaps as many as 60,000 starved when the
> > > > >predicted millennia of plenty failed to arrive. Known as the
>Cattle
> > > > >Killing, it was not a unique response for a primitive society being
> > > > >displaced by a more technically advanced one. The "Ghost
> > > > >Dancers" phenomenon among American Indians was a similar
> > > > >response.
> > > > >
> > > > >Since I did the research for that article a 1989 book came out, J.
> > > > >B. Peires, "The Central Beliefs of the Xhosa Cattle-killing." Some
> > > > >of it is on the net here.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >http://www.stmarys.ca/administration/library/links/shist13/files/peires2.pd
>f
> > > > >
> > > > >Definitely worth reading!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > How tragic. It reminds me of something I read a few years ago that
> > > > said that people who blamed themselves for their misfortunes
> > > > recovered more quickly from traumatic events because it allowed
> > > > them to preserve a sense that they had some control over what
> > > > happened. At least they had the illusion that they had some control
> > > > over their demise.
> > >
> > >In the case of the Xhosa there was no illusion. They were entirely in
> > >control of their demise.
> > >
> > >What the cattle killings demonstrate is that mass suicide is primarily
>a
> > >phenomenon of culture, not cult. Of course, cults can also commit
> > >collective suicide, but it's just an act of idiocy, as the only threat
>to
> > >their freedom is themselves. As authentic group-level expressions of
> > >human consciousness, cultures commit suicide when they face the
> > >propspect of enslavement. To be human is to be free. Better to die.
> >
> > Ah, Ted, did you *read* the URL? Cult or culture, it was clearly a
> > situation where a mutated meme got lose and did a fair job of wiping out
> > the population.
>
>Keith,
>
>I readily concede that the cattle killing involved a delusion, as did the
>Jews at Masada. But the inaccuracy of a belief doesn't necessarily make it
>"mutant." Myth is universal among pre-scientific cultures and is extremely
>important at binding communities. The idea that the Xhosa would regain in
>paradise all that they had destroyed on earth helped them to resist their
>absorption into an alien culture. It enabled them to control their demise,
>to retain their human dignity to the end, just like Masada. This is a
>healthy meme. If everyone resisted enslavement to the death, there would
>be
>no imperialism, no systematic injustice and inequality. We would indeed be
>inhabiting paradise.
>
>
Isn't Masada still a big component of the Israeli-Jewish cultural milieu?
_The Complete Idiot's Guide to Middle East Conflict_ (by Mitchell Bard,
1999, Alpha Books, Indianapolis) refers to a "Masada complex" and says that
Israeli soldiers swear an oath ("Masada shall not fall again") at the Masada
site. Hopefully I'm not reliving the mosque/mosquito thing here.
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