Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA25501 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:55:56 GMT Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:50:30 -0500 Subject: Re: mind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: "Wade T.Smith" <wade_smith@harvard.edu> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <B89DAB7A.1E8%srdrew_1@hotmail.com> Message-Id: <3ADC976A-293E-11D6-98B8-003065B9A95A@harvard.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.481) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 04:37 , Steve Drew wrote:
> But you would not term eating or sleeping as
> memetic behaviours. Hence not all habitual bahaviours are not
> necessarily
> memetic
No, eating and sleeping are necessary autonomic behaviors, like sneezing
and defecating. I doubt anyone attributes memetic qualities to them. But
they are not _habitual_ behaviors, (indeed, if they appear to become
habitual, as in sleep disorders, they are symptoms of an underlying
physical problem), as, definitionally, habitual behaviors are not
necessary and autonomic behaviors. A habitual behavior is one learned
through repetition and unperceived during performance, personal quirks.
But, affectations? They may have had intentional beginnings, as things
turn to habit through mere repetition- do you really _remember_ making
the coffee this morning?, but they become a conditioned activity or
response.
The argument, memetically, as far as I can tell, is whether or not, once
become habitual, these behaviors can be said to be memes, or memetic,
depending upon your stance. My stance unfortunately is without an answer
to this question- as _habits_ they are not memetic, but they are
artifactual behaviors which can be perceived and interpreted
memetically, and that fits within the behavior-only model. And, 'maybe'
don't count.... But perhaps it's a conditional definition we need.
When I first saw 'Divorce, Italian Style', I became fixated upon a mouth
and lip mannerism that Marcello embellished the character of Guido with,
and, I remember affecting it personally. (Years later, I was watching it
with a lover, and she instantly reacted to the same affectation with an
'oh, what a disgusting habit....' Time and place are, uh, important. I
said nothing....) After a while, I was doing it without knowing it, and
I don't recall when I stopped, but, this is an example of a behavior
intentionally copied that became habitual. Did _my_ memetic process stop
once the behavior became automatic? I think yes. Did the memetic process
of the behavior itself stop? I think no. But this is not clearcut, at
all. Because my intent was to adopt a behavior that had certain
intentional connotations, once it became automatic within me, it still
had the opportunity to be perceived and understood _with the same
intentional connotation_, and thus, was a meme being performed
nonetheless.
So, intentionally adopted behaviors with memetic content can be memes,
even after the performance is automatic. This fits with calling all the
cultural facades of rituals and manners memes as well.
But, the whole range of autonomic behaviors, such as ingesting food and
defecating, can only be surrounded and contained by cultural mannerisms
and codes. One has to eat, and culture lets us eat alone, or with a
group, or at a table, or on a cushion, or with salad first or salad
between.... But nothing memetic or cultural can affect the need to eat
or the fact we have to eat.
But, eating disorders, like false memories, are rich fields for
investigations as well. I'm not sure memetics has the drive-train to get
into that territory.
- Wade
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sun Feb 24 2002 - 16:05:48 GMT