Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA08752 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 18 May 2000 15:19:42 +0100 Message-ID: <3923B64D.3EE9763F@mediaone.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:22:21 +0100 From: Chuck Palson <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB1AE@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> Surely it doesn't matter if a meme's survival is marginal, what matters is
> it's survival? So, 'you might get a few copycats'- that's the point exactly.
>
OK - if you want to make that the point, than that's the point. It becomes
relevant if, for some reason, you think those groups have some relevance to a
problem you want to know about. Practically speaking, if these groups keep
blowing up buildings, the police agencies want to know more about how those
memes get perpetuated. So they study not just the memes themselves -- as some
memists would do -- but the psychology of certain marginal types, because that
has a lot to do with it.
>
> Besides, when you look at cults in 'all of history', what you don't see is
> the means of cults preserving their beliefs in things like home videos, and
> websites, and gore-happy news media coverage.
>
Actual history rarely if ever gets preserved. They don't get preserved in any
meaningful sense just because they are put on videos or appear once on the news.
They get preserved when people watch them and decide to make it part of their
"lessons of the past" file. Again, if you are interested in this particular
process for some reason, fine. But it has no broad effect on the overall society
-- which is, frankly, what I am interested in because of my evolutionary
interests. That's the only reason why memes caught my attention in the first
place -- because of the claims that it has something to do with evolution.
>
> My point about doomsday cults was that people believe weird things that
> don't happen, like the world ending, and continue to believe even when those
> things don't happen. Utility and accuracy aren't relevant in cults, whether
> they are suicidal or doomsday cults (and there's a lot of overlap, funnily
> enough).
Yes, that's all true. But they are nevertheless marginal and don't represent the
broad society of a longer period of time. If they did, the human race would
disappear quite quickly.
>
>
> Vincent
>
> > ----------
> > From: Chuck Palson
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 2:37 pm
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> >
> >
> >
> > Vincent Campbell wrote:
> >
> > > I'm not sure about this line of argument about cults as failures.
> > >
> > > Mass suicide's may kill off all or most of the followers (someone always
> > > escapes, or leaves prior to the suicide/massacre, who retains knowledge
> > of
> > > the cult's beliefs, as from Heaven's Gate, as from Jonestown, as from
> > the
> > > Branch Davidians), but the ideas of the cult needn't be killed off,
> > indeed
> > > transmission of the cult's beliefs may actually increase because the
> > mass
> > > suicide may draw massive attention from the rest of society. Note how
> > both
> > > the Davidians and the H.Gate groups made home videos talking about their
> > > beliefs and what they were doing, in Jonestown, the massacre was
> > recorded in
> > > (chilling) audio. Books have been written, documentaries have been
> > about
> > > such groups etc. etc. so the messages are still being transmitted,
> > waiting
> > > for another person or group of people to give the meme another boost via
> > a
> > > mass suicide. Death of the person doesn't necessarily mean death of the
> > > meme (the cruxification anyone?, or at the other pole of death
> > contributing
> > > to the perpetuation of religious belief- mass human sacrifices amongst
> > the
> > > Aztecs?).
> >
> > I haven't seen any evidence in all of history that the suicide of a group
> > furthers the ideas of a group in anything but a marginal way. Yes, you
> > might get
> > some scattered copycats, but nothing beyond that.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Interestingly, some psychologists have studied doomsday cults and what
> > > happens when dates of the supposed 'end of the world' come and go
> > without
> > > anything happening. Remarkably, and counter-intuitively perhaps,
> > support
> > > for the cults' beliefs strengthens amongst most members rather than
> > > dissipate. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a good example here, since
> > although
> > > they were quite quiet over the millenium, they have suggested several
> > dates
> > > in the 20th Century as the end of the world (quite a few in the 1910s
> > and
> > > 1920s), and yet they are still very much in existence.
> >
> > Yes - but this is hardly suicide -- which I have noticed seems to have a
> > finality about it.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > So, following this line of argument it is indeed a question of the memes
> > > being the important thing to analyse.
> > >
> > > Vincent
> > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > From: Lawrence H. de Bivort
> > > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 5:09 am
> > > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck Palson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I think I answered this in another form yesterday - but it goes like
> > > > this. Yes,
> > > > >people do hold beliefs on the basis of their _apparent_ usefulness,
> > and
> > > > most
> > > > >beliefs in an ongoing society _are_ accurate or the society would
> > > > collapse
> > > > >pretty fast. It is up to the scientist to figure out how these
> > beliefs
> > > > are
> > > > >useful because people can't always make that conscious -- because it
> > > > often does
> > > > >them no good to be able to verbalize it.
> > > >
> > > > I think "usefulness" is a significant element in the spread of memes
> > --
> > > > quite possibly necessary but not sufficient. (Among the other elements
> > > > also necessary are a number of architectural characteristics that have
> > to
> > > > do with simplicity, defense, etc.). Now, by 'useful' I am thinkign
> > quite
> > > > broadly, to include memes that are perceived as useful, truly useful,
> > > > short-term useful, long-term, etc. There must be a _reason for the
> > > > adoption of the meme, and the architectural components are not
> > themselves
> > > > sufficient.
> > > >
> > > > I also have found that people _can_ express the utility of a meme to
> > them
> > > > quite easily, if questioned effectively.
> > > >
> > > > The ditty stuck in a person's head....is it useful? I have been
> > following
> > > > this discussion with lots of interest, and would offer this thought:
> > it
> > > > may be that the _mechanism_ through which the brain registers the
> > ditty is
> > > > a mechanism that has some other (and more recognizably useful)
> > function,
> > > > and that its (unfortunate) ability to remember useless ditties is
> > > > incidental. (Perhaps there are auditory characteristics of successful
> > > > ditties that are important for other reasons, and the ditties merely
> > > > contain these characteristics.)
> > > >
> > > > I do use the presupposition that _everything_ a person does, from a
> > > > behavior to a belief to a statement, is useful to that person, whether
> > it
> > > > is in ways that can understand or verbalize, or not. This
> > presupposition,
> > > > which is one I use for utterly pragmatic reasons, may be coloring the
> > way
> > > > I think of memes.
> > > >
> > > > >> If the
> > > > >> beliefs help their adherents survive better, that more fits what I
> > said
> > > > >> about leading to (presumably) a more desirable life. But certainly
> > > > there are
> > > > >> examples of religions, such as Koresh and Heaven's Gate, that do
> > not
> > > > enhance
> > > > >> survival but just the reverse.
> > > > >
> > > > >Yes - and they don't last. They were the failed experiments.
> > > >
> > > > Well, let us simply suppose that the 'purpose' of a meme lies in the
> > > > intent of its designer, in those cases where it is designed, and
> > > > deliberately released. One can easily imagine an intention other than
> > that
> > > > the meme itself survive. (This notion of the controlling goal of
> > > > 'survival' is one of the weaknesses that memetics seems to be saddled
> > with
> > > > by those who would equate in the social sphere a meme to a gene.)
> > > > Supposing the Heaven's Gate meme(s) _were_ designed not with the
> > meme's
> > > > survival in mind, but with the suicide of the group's adherents, or to
> > put
> > > > it perhaps more precisely, with their 'travel' post-Earth to wherever.
> > The
> > > > meme, in guiding them to this end, certainly would have achieved the
> > > > intent of its designer, though the meme itself expired. Nothing wrong
> > with
> > > > that. I see meems as tools, and the important thing is what is
> > > > accomplished with the tool, not the tool itself.
> > > >
> > > > - Lawrence
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > |---------------------------------------------|
> > > > | ESI |
> > > > | Evolutionary Services Institute |
> > > > | "Crafting opportunities for a better world" |
> > > > | 5504 Scioto Road, Bethesda, MD 20816, USA |
> > > > | (301) 320-3941 |
> > > > |---------------------------------------------|
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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