Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id AAA01956 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:23:44 GMT Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:18:10 -0800 Message-Id: <200202180018.g1I0IAD05899@mail9.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [65.80.163.167] From: "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Words and Memes Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
> "Dace" <edace@earthlink.net> <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Re: Words and MemesDate: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:13:25 -0800
>Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
>
>Lawrence,
>
>> > Ideas become memetic only when they self-replicate. When they
>> > replicate through human intention, they're just ideas. Yes, memes
>> > can involve behavior as well as ideas. But if we equate memes with
>> > behavior and ideas, then we might as well just refer to behavior and
>> > ideas and forget about "memes." There has to be something that
>> > distinguishes some behaviors and ideas from others. When they're
>> > not only habitual but *culturally* habitual, then they constitute memes.
>>
>> Yes, well said. This is how we view memes. Memes are ideas or beliefs
>> that specifically have structures and elements (primarily linguistic or
>> symbolic) that will enable to self-disseminate and self-defend. If an
>idea
>> does not have these structures it is not a meme.
>>
>> Memes are not behaviors because behaviors _can_ have no idea
>> behind them, nor need have self-replicating structures.
>
>What about a language? Isn't our speech a self-perpetuating behavior? It
>begins as a product of human creativity but gradually becomes ingrained.
>You can learn a language intentionally, but that's not how children do it.
>Our native language incorporates us into itself, not the other way around.
>
If this were true, all speakers of a given language would possess identical vocabularies, which is clearly not the case. Children learn, by means of their exposure to language-speaking others, the syntactical structure of a given language or languages during a critical period, but people may learn new words throughout their lives, and different people possess different vocabularies. Competence (what people can understand of a language) and performance (what people use of a language) vary between individuals. We are not a part of language; language is a part of us by virtue of the fact that we have learned (cortically encoded and retained)it. There is much more to us than linguistic capacity.
>
>> A behavior, if it given these structures
>> and an idea or belief embedded within it, can then but only then serve
>> as a medium for a meme.
>
>Why can't a behavior be both the meme and its mode of propagation?
>
>> i would add, for this same reason other instances
>> of the human experience are not memes either, e.g. emotions, or the
>> expression of emotions....unless they are embedded in the memetic
>> structures.
>
>The way we express emotions is culturally defined and therefore memetic.
>
>> To take this a little further: It is the structure that allows
>self-diseemination
>> and self-defense that makes a thing a meme, not the thing itself.
>
>Well put.
>
>Ted
>
>
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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