Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id RAA00306 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 12 May 2000 17:21:12 +0100 Message-ID: <391BE9D0.17D27167@mediaone.net> Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:24:00 +0100 From: Chuck Palson <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB183@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> hunter-gatherer environment? Are all our peculiar cultural habits a
> feature, as Wilson would say I suppose, simply the result of genetic driving
> which can't keep up with the pace of environmental change, and thus are
> often 'mistakes' (like the examples you give), or is something else
> involved? Does something having a use in our ancestral environment explain
> its specific form (or forms) of existence in the contemporary environment?
>
> Vincent
>
Vincent - One aspect of this subject has been investigated. I think it's
Cosmides (I can find out for you). He shows that even those who are
professionally involved with the use of logic - like mathemeticians - have as
much difficulty solving certain simple logical problems as the lay public - and
have quite a high probability of getting it wrong. They say the reason for this
lies in the fact that logic under ancestral conditions was tied to concrete
objects and it was only used when absolutely necessary. Under modern conditions,
we must abstract out the ability to be logical so we can use it across a broad
array of situations. But since our brains weren't constructed to do this, using
logic this way can be quite a frail tool.
Which brings me to another aspect of this subject. Yes, from all I have been
able to observe in two countries under conditions of extremely rapid change,
such change does short circuit or make less functional the the processing power
of our brain acquired during more stable times. I have confirmed the following
in both Brazil (which has traversed the psycyhological distance that took us 2
centuries in about 2-3 decades) and the United States: there is an loss of
elementary common sense. That's not a joke. Here's some of my evidence.
Scott Adams refers to an incident in his first book where he, too, talks about
the same phenmoenon - of how people are more "stupid" - including himself,
because of the rate of change. When his tape recorder stopped functioning, he
brought it into the repair service -- who pointed out that he needed new
batteries; Scott is not stupid, he just developed tunnel vision like the rest of
us. He and I both believe that this kind of thing - which happens all the time -
is caused by the necessity under situations of extreme cultural change to
develop tunnel vision, focusing on only those things which are immediately and
directly relevant to making a living. Other more peripheral things get short
changed. What also happens is that we must assimulate things that often don't
make much sense because we haven't had time to develop a deeper understanding.
Computers are a good example. So even in those areas where we develop tunnel
vision, our use of common sense is often crippled because it's not used a lot.
I have spoken to Robert Kaplan about this loss of "common sense" (for lack of a
better term at the moment) and he says that he has noticed it world wide. I
could go into examples in Brazil which would knock your socks off, and they also
notice it consciously.
I am sure this is nothing new. There is evidence that this "memic
disorientation" has happened throughout history during sudden changes. It
surfaces specifically around the question of meaning. For example, Socrates'
constant questioning in 300BC(?) was a manifestation of this. More recently, the
question of meaning comes up explicitly during the industrial revolution as in
the philosophy of Neitze and later, Satre or Camus. This is not characteristic
behavior of people living under stable conditions. People who are living in
traditional societies where they have children, remain mothers for their entire
lives, etc. etc. do not ask heavy questions about the meaning of life.
What is going on here? I think that the conscious mind - the part that is
responsible for planning (where we talk to ourselves about various projects,
including how we are going to talk to this or that person), which uses a lot of
language (as when we talk to ourselves) can only process so much. Yet that is
the part we need the most when things are changing fast becasue we can't rely on
what we already know - the "intuitive" part of the brain which reaches as far
down as the lymbic system.
Here is an interesting hypothesis based on what I have said: the most important
reason that people are so attracted to memetics is precisely because of the
disorientation caused by our current rate of rapid change. The meaning of many
"memes," if you will, are in the process of transition, and so the depth of
their meanings (the network of associations built up in the brain) is rather
shallow. The feeling that memes can have little or no meaning or practical value
comes from this whole process of rapid change. That is, the meanings of anything
don't have a chance establish a rich network of associations, so there is a
"thinness" if you will, to our culture. I have noticed this thinness when
learning a new language. The words lack enough depth to stick very well, and I
make some really stupid errors in reasoning. So in one sense, memetics is a
historical product of these times. Memeticists take as their subject a real
phenomenon, although they exaggerate it as when they treat memes as having a
life of their own. That's why they all - probably without exception - tend to be
anti technology. They don't recognize, however, the historical specificity of
their observations so they incorrectly generalize their intuitions.
>
> > ----------
> > From: Bill Spight
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:18 am
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> >
> > Dear Vincent,
> >
> > > At a small
> > > social group level, you've got bond-forming and maintaining, but how
> > many of
> > > his fans does Michael Jordan know (and vice versa)? And I'm sure we're
> > > familiar with the concept of widows & orphans in sport, the families of
> > > fanatical sports followers who definitely suffer as a result, we're
> > talking
> > > about behaviours which are quite widespread around the world, relating
> > to a
> > > myriad of different sports, that seemd to defy being satisfactorily
> > > explained by genetic advantage
> >
> > Isn't sports fanaticism atavistic? I. e., it is not very fit in a
> > modern civilized environment, but it probably was in the smaller
> > social groups in which humans have lived for most of our
> > existence (and it expressed itself differently too, I expect).
> > Much the same can be said for the sweet tooth, which is more
> > fitted for an environment where you pick fruit from trees, rather
> > than one with donut shops.
> >
> > And thanks for the joke. ;-)
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri May 12 2000 - 17:21:35 BST