Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id EAA24382 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 11 May 2000 04:01:36 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:59:46 +1000 From: John Wilkins <wilkins@wehi.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: Emergence - the concept, and evolution To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <391A150A.CF90B89E@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <MailDrop1.2d7j-PPC.1000511125946@mac463.wehi.edu.au> X-Authenticated: <wilkins@wehiz.wehi.edu.au> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
On Wed, 10 May 2000 19:03:54 -0700 bspight@pacbell.net (Bill Spight)
wrote:
>Dear John,
>
>> A better term is Kim's supervenience - any two identical physical
>> systems (in all possible worlds) will have the same supervenient
>> properties,
>
>How so? Supervenient properties are extraneous, so identical
>systems in different worlds will normally have different
>supervenient properties. No?
I don't quite understand what you mean by "extraneous" here. Also,
"different worlds" in metaphysics has more to do with possible outcomes
than with physically different worlds.
>
>> Elliot
>> Sober in his _Nature of Selection_ and his 1993 argued that "fitness"
>is
>> a supervenient property of organisms (hence also memes?) because the
>> physical causes of fitness of genes and traits are different case by
>> case but similar if the organisms are similar.
>
>Fitness is indeed a supervenient to organisms, relying upon the
>relation between the organisms and their environment. It
>shouldn't be considered as a property of the organisms.
True enough, but one still wants to say that a phenotype is fitter than
another (implicitly holding the environmental constraints constant for
both). Relative to E, organisms have fitness, and it is a supervenient
property. Or so Sober says.
>
>> but the same supervenient properties can be realised in
>> different phsyical systems (identical brains have identical minds,
>but
>> identical minds might also arise in computers, for example).
>
>Or two different people might share the same sense of humor.
Nobody else has mine, to the relief of the known universe.
--John Wilkins, Head, Graphic Production The Walter and Eliza Hall Institute of Medical Research Melbourne, Australia <mailto:wilkins@WEHI.EDU.AU> <http://www.users.bigpond.com/thewilkins/darwiniana.html> Homo homini aut deus aut lupus - Erasmus of Rotterdam
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