Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id RAA22119 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Wed, 10 May 2000 17:32:13 +0100 Message-ID: <3919496B.5C1ABCEA@mediaone.net> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:35:07 +0100 From: Chuck Palson <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics References: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB179@inchna.stir.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
It's exactly opposed to cultural relativism (much to my relief). Here is how it
works from the ecology up. The types of groupings and behaviors of a society
are, by necessity, tailored to the environment. A hunting/gathering society only
survives if it has the personalities and social organizations appropriate to
hunting and gathering. That goes for any society - the mode of social and
biological reproduction must be appropriate to the ecology of that society. The
big scare word here is 'determined.'
Thus, people don't do simply 'weird' things, but things within the
appropriateness to survival in a particular environment. Let me know if you want
examples and what type.
Vincent Campbell wrote:
> The problem with that is that this is cultural relativism all over again.
> People do weird things because it means something to their group. How does
> this help us understand human behaviour? We want to know why those specific
> things like sock colour become important to groups and individuals.
> > ----------
> > From: Chuck Palson
> > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:30 am
> > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> >
> >
> >
> > Vincent Campbell wrote:
> >
> > > OK Chuck I think I've got a situation I think shows the flaw in the
> > > 'usefulness' argument- fashion trends.
> > >
> > > In particular trends in what colour of sock is considered de riguer. In
> > the
> > > UK, in the early 1980s, white socks were seen as 'cool', whereas now
> > they
> > > are seen as very 'uncool', but what is the relative utility value of
> > white
> > > as opposed to say black socks? [let's assume that the black and white
> > socks
> > > are made from the same material]
> >
> > Nope. Fashion is notoriously group specific. People want to dress
> > according to a
> > certain status so they can be easily identified by others of the same
> > group.
> > That has lots of utility which I can expand if you want to. It's not
> > simply some
> > abstract notion of group cohesion.
> >
> > However, in the US, during times of great fluidity of class - like the
> > last 5
> > years or so - the status signs tend to break down temporarily. So you can
> > get
> > very expensive designs in discount stores, and you find very well off
> > people
> > shopping in Walmart to make sure they get the bargain! I'm talking about
> > people
> > who make millions who trifle over $50! It's bizzarre but understandable
> > when you
> > take into account other aspects of American ideology. But I should add
> > that the
> > fact that discount stores can get up to date design because of some
> > accidents:
> > 1) recent advances in technology make it possible to bring things to
> > market in
> > about half the time it used to take and very cheaply, and 2) the fashion
> > at
> > present is not prints - which would be much harder to bring to market so
> > fast.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Blackmore gives the example of a hunter who happens to be more
> > successful
> > > than another, and amongst their differences are the colour of their
> > arrow
> > > feathers. That difference is copied alongside the successful hunter's
> > other
> > > attributes, but it is not consequential.
> >
> > I don't know if that actually happens, but let's assume it is. Copying is
> > part
> > of group dynamics - like which emerging leader you are going to follow.
> >
> > > One of the points that Dawkins
> > > makes, I believe in 'Unweaving the Rainbow', or it might have been
> > Michael
> > > Shermer in 'Why Do People Believe Weird Things' (editor of The Skeptic
> > > magazine), is precisely that humans do have apparently illogical and
> > strange
> > > beliefs because our perceptual systems are actually far from perfect.
> > So,
> > > we make associations that can't possibly be true- such as rain dances
> > and
> > > astrology.
> >
> > "True" in the literal object sense is hardly important. I have mentioned
> > this in
> > relation to Dawkins critique of religion. It doesn't matter that there is
> > no
> > objective proof that god exists. Religion is used to establish and respect
> > laws
> > for the purpose of cooperating to survive.
> >
> > >
> > > Let me ask you a question. Can you find a utility reason for every
> > single
> > > thing you do in your life, and for everything you have?
> > >
> >
> > Yes. But in order to do that, I have to get past the automatic
> > self-deception
> > that is built into our system. A useful way to do that is to look at other
> > people's behavior first, understand it well, and then find the elementary
> > building blocks inside yourself that would replicate the same behavior.
> > And
> > frankly, there are times I wish I didn't do this sort of analysis, but I'm
> > a
> > driven person on this matter for historical reasons.
> >
> > Nevertheless, I must admit that jingles do sometimes get stuck! It's
> > pretty
> > rare, though.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > From: Chuck Palson
> > > > Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2000 1:50 pm
> > > > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> > > > Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Richard Brodie wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Chuck wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > << when you get any belief structure that is widespread, it's
> > because
> > > > it's
> > > > > useful.>>
> > > > >
> > > > > I think few would agree with this.
> > > >
> > > > As someone else said at this site, popularity doesn't determine
> > scientific
> > > > accuracy. It is true that many social scientists have very little idea
> > of
> > > > how
> > > > belief structures are related to practical reality. But you give me a
> > > > belief
> > > > structure, and I'll show you its use.
> > > >
> > > > Let's do this: You obviously don't believe it. You believe that memes
> > can
> > > > exist
> > > > without a useful function. How about I will give you $1.00 for each
> > such
> > > > meme
> > > > you can find up to, say $100. If you can't find even one that doesn't
> > have
> > > > a
> > > > useful function, you owe me $100. If you are right, it's certainly an
> > easy
> > > > way
> > > > to make some quick money, no?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > << As I keep saying, religions only change as a way to adapt
> > behavior
> > > > > (really, the body of law that governs behavior) to the new
> > conditions
> > > > > introduced
> > > > > by the technology or economic arrangements. I know next to nothing
> > about
> > > > > Buddhism, so I can't comment on that, but I know that Christianity
> > has
> > > > > changed
> > > > > through the years (See"The History of God" by Karen Armstrong).>>
> > > > >
> > > > > And this change benefits who? The religion, right?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > In what sense do you mean that? The functionaries of the religious
> > > > structure?
> > > > Yes, I suppose they benefit in the same way that the salesman for a
> > > > revolutionary new invention benefits. But he can only sell the product
> > if
> > > > people
> > > > perceive benefit. The short of it is this: the most important part of
> > > > religion
> > > > is its law giving function, whether that law be formal or informal,
> > > > implicit or
> > > > explicit. Religious laws express the idea that these laws are quote
> > > > literally
> > > > above any one individual, and religion introduces all kinds of rituals
> > > > that
> > > > induce the sense that law is 'above' us in every sense of that term.
> > From
> > > > a
> > > > broader perspective, these laws are what make cooperative behavior
> > > > possible --
> > > > which happens to be the essence of human ability to survive. Today we
> > have
> > > > formal governments that do much of the work, but religion for many
> > people
> > > > is
> > > > still a necessary supplement. If you want to get a more detailed sense
> > of
> > > > how
> > > > Christianity does this, read Max Weber's works on it - they are quite
> > > > detailed.
> > > > His only error was that he got it wrong - the religion doesn't come
> > before
> > > > capitalism, it comes as a way to adapt to emerging capitalist
> > structures.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [RB]
> > > > > Dawkins named the meme,for which you can love or hate
> > > > > him, and generated good controversy with his essay "viruses of the
> > > > mind."
> > > > >
> > > > > <<Is this readily available on the net?>>
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a link to it at Meme Central, www.memecentral.com
> > > > >
> > > > > <<Give me ANY belief system and I will
> > > > > show you how it has material consequences. I'm quite serious. Give
> > me
> > > > > anything,
> > > > > and I'll demonstrate it.>>
> > > > >
> > > > > You'll get no argument on this one. But "material consequences" is
> > not
> > > > the
> > > > > same as "useful," is it?
> > > >
> > > > OK - useful material consequences.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > <<It might be relevant here to say that Grandpa DOES use the
> > internet
> > > > now.
> > > > > Now he
> > > > > does new repetitive behaviors - like writing e-mails all the time
> > about
> > > > > things
> > > > > that interest him -- and are useful. The reason Grandpa does it is
> > > > because
> > > > > he has
> > > > > a lot of time to learn computers now, and it is, after all, useful
> > to
> > > > > communicate across distances despite what poor Ms. Blackmore feels
> > about
> > > > it
> > > > > :).>>
> > > > >
> > > > > Then how do you explain the fact that seniors are the slowest group
> > to
> > > > adopt
> > > > > computers?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You haven't kept up with the stats. It has changed very rapidly.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> > > > > http://www.memecentral.com/rbrodie.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > ===============================================================
> > > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information
> > Transmission
> > > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ===============================================================
> > > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> > > >
> > >
> > > ===============================================================
> > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
> >
> > ===============================================================
> > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
> >
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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