Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA16167 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 9 May 2000 18:47:18 +0100 Message-ID: <3918097B.21AECAFC@mediaone.net> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:50:03 +0100 From: Chuck Palson <cpalson@mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: Re: Central questions of memetics References: <NBBBIIDKHCMGAIPMFFPJMEJPEMAA.richard@brodietech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Richard Brodie wrote:
> Chuck wrote:
>
> << when you get any belief structure that is widespread, it's because it's
> useful.>>
>
> I think few would agree with this.
As someone else said at this site, popularity doesn't determine scientific
accuracy. It is true that many social scientists have very little idea of how
belief structures are related to practical reality. But you give me a belief
structure, and I'll show you its use.
Let's do this: You obviously don't believe it. You believe that memes can exist
without a useful function. How about I will give you $1.00 for each such meme
you can find up to, say $100. If you can't find even one that doesn't have a
useful function, you owe me $100. If you are right, it's certainly an easy way
to make some quick money, no?
>
>
> << As I keep saying, religions only change as a way to adapt behavior
> (really, the body of law that governs behavior) to the new conditions
> introduced
> by the technology or economic arrangements. I know next to nothing about
> Buddhism, so I can't comment on that, but I know that Christianity has
> changed
> through the years (See"The History of God" by Karen Armstrong).>>
>
> And this change benefits who? The religion, right?
>
In what sense do you mean that? The functionaries of the religious structure?
Yes, I suppose they benefit in the same way that the salesman for a
revolutionary new invention benefits. But he can only sell the product if people
perceive benefit. The short of it is this: the most important part of religion
is its law giving function, whether that law be formal or informal, implicit or
explicit. Religious laws express the idea that these laws are quote literally
above any one individual, and religion introduces all kinds of rituals that
induce the sense that law is 'above' us in every sense of that term. From a
broader perspective, these laws are what make cooperative behavior possible --
which happens to be the essence of human ability to survive. Today we have
formal governments that do much of the work, but religion for many people is
still a necessary supplement. If you want to get a more detailed sense of how
Christianity does this, read Max Weber's works on it - they are quite detailed.
His only error was that he got it wrong - the religion doesn't come before
capitalism, it comes as a way to adapt to emerging capitalist structures.
>
> [RB]
> Dawkins named the meme,for which you can love or hate
> him, and generated good controversy with his essay "viruses of the mind."
>
> <<Is this readily available on the net?>>
>
> There is a link to it at Meme Central, www.memecentral.com
>
> <<Give me ANY belief system and I will
> show you how it has material consequences. I'm quite serious. Give me
> anything,
> and I'll demonstrate it.>>
>
> You'll get no argument on this one. But "material consequences" is not the
> same as "useful," is it?
OK - useful material consequences.
>
>
> <<It might be relevant here to say that Grandpa DOES use the internet now.
> Now he
> does new repetitive behaviors - like writing e-mails all the time about
> things
> that interest him -- and are useful. The reason Grandpa does it is because
> he has
> a lot of time to learn computers now, and it is, after all, useful to
> communicate across distances despite what poor Ms. Blackmore feels about it
> :).>>
>
> Then how do you explain the fact that seniors are the slowest group to adopt
> computers?
>
You haven't kept up with the stats. It has changed very rapidly.
>
> Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> http://www.memecentral.com/rbrodie.htm
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue May 09 2000 - 18:47:34 BST