Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA15374 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Tue, 9 May 2000 15:59:18 +0100 Message-ID: <2D1C159B783DD211808A006008062D31CEB15F@inchna.stir.ac.uk> From: Vincent Campbell <v.p.campbell@stir.ac.uk> To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Central questions of memetics Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:57:17 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Dear Richard,
Given your excellent response to Chuck, I hope you didn't feel offended by
my comment about pop-psychology and TV talk shows the other day!
Vincent Campbell
> ----------
> From: Richard Brodie
> Reply To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2000 3:27 pm
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Central questions of memetics
>
> Chuck wrote:
>
> <<no one in this list has answered my
> central question - what is the advantage of treating memes as having an
> independent existence instead of being tools that people use to solve the
> problems of existence -- tools, albeit, that *always* have unintended
> consequences.>>
>
> Several people have taken a crack at communicating the essence of the idea
> to you. Frankly, if reading my 250-page book on the subject didn't
> enlighten
> you I doubt anything I could say in an email would have much effect. From
> reading your posts I have a hunch that you are emotionally invested in the
> "intelligent design" theory of cultural evolution, that people see needs
> and
> create inventions to fill those needs. Those inventions then spread, or
> don't, because of their utility. The problem is, the definition of
> "utility"
> needs to be bent so far to explain the prevalence of things like
> ever-growing government bureaucracies, astrology, chain letters, and
> fashion
> trends that some people are unsatisfied with that explanation.
>
> Memetics takes the position that culture evolves the way it does because
> some ideas---memes---possess the properties, in a given cultural context
> and
> with the general psychological makeup of humans, to proliferate faster and
> wider than others. In addition there's the notion that cultural
> organisms---memeplexes or viruses of the mind---have evolved to take
> advantage of their environment---our minds---and spread with greater and
> greater effectiveness.
>
> Why is this a more satisfying explanation than yours? Really, without
> experimentation all I can do is plead obviousness. This is the major
> obstacle to memetics being taken seriously: experimental results are very
> scarce as of yet. You are right to be skeptical. That said, I think anyone
> who actually wants to have an effect on the world would be foolish not to
> engineer that effect through the memetic model. I called my book "Virus of
> the Mind" and put a scary syringe on the cover, pumping ideas into a
> brain,
> because I wanted to push people's buttons and get them to notice the book.
> If I believed in your "utility" model that wouldn't have mattered. I
> jumped
> at the chance to appear on Oprah! because I know that TV spreads memes. I
> don't think you can argue that point. A book that Oprah likes sells more
> copies than a "useful" book that gets no exposure.
>
> So don't get hung up on "independent existence." No one is claming any
> mystical properties of memes. Looking at culture from the point of view of
> the meme is just a trick to wrap our brains around a complex phenomenon in
> search of a useful explanation that, in spite of its immense utility, has
> had difficulty spreading.
>
> Richard Brodie richard@brodietech.com
> http://www.memecentral.com/rbrodie.htm
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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