Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA13186 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Sun, 5 Mar 2000 19:46:38 GMT Message-Id: <200003051947.OAA09450@mail1.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:48:37 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.20000320114722.0080b100@rongenet.sk.ca> References: <200003042356.SAA15462@mail5.lig.bellsouth.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Date sent: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:47:22 -0600
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk, memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Lloyd Robertson <hawkeye@rongenet.sk.ca>
Subject: Re: Monkeys stone herdsman in Kenya
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> At 06:00 PM 04/03/00 -0600, Joe E. Dees wrote:
> >We know that anything which is modified for a chosen purpose
> >becomes cultural rather than natural, and that there must be an
> >internal memetic plan or design behind the external memetic
> >physical-instantiation-by-modification, unless it is entirely random,
> >in which case it will make no sense and serve no discernible
> >purpose
>
> Oh really?
>
Yes, really.
>
> Please explain the difference between "cultural" and "natural".
> When, for example, am I doing a "cultural" thing and when am I doing a
> non-cultural "natural" thing?
>
Hokay. For living systems:
1) Natural = genetically circumscribed, i.e. instinctual (such as our linguistic
capacity in general).
2) Cultural = arbitrary and by mutual convention rather than being either
materially or causally necessary (such as the particular tongue(s) one speaks).
>
> I submit that, at a mass level, cultural change is random and those changes
> that replicate are those with greater survival value: survival from the
> point of view of the meme, not necessarily the host.
>
Memes are not conscious, as people are; strictly speaking,
memes neither have nor can have "point(s) of view." Cultural
change is far from random, as technology and science, as well as
the generalization of human rights to more humans and the
standard of living, have all undeniably progressed. The reason that
a lot of the changes replicate is because many memes are less
virulents than they are symbionts, and the ones we perceive as
possessing more value for us are chosen by us to retain and
replicate (note that religious memes piggyback upon this rule quite
effectively). Also note that the movements of the stock market
may seem as random as an ocean wave, but its rises and falls, its
ebbs and flows, are comprised of a multitude of conscious
decisions to buy and sell, in response to the intersection of three
philosophys; ethical egotism (that people act in what they perceive
as their own best interests), indeterminism (that people possess
an incomplete and flawed understanding of the consequences of
their actions), and existentialism (that nevertheless people are
responsible for the consequences of their actions).
> Lloyd
>
>
> ===============================================================
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>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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